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Still chasing high temperatures

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jgodfrey View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 June 2022 at 1:50am
I've replaced the radiator and cap (the old one was shot), the thermostat (165° Seal Tested from Pete Debella), flushed the coolant (it was pretty cloudy after the rebuild but is clean now), upgraded the temp gauge, and am still seeing temps climb up to 200 diving down the road at 35-40 mph. And stopping at a light today it got to 210. 

When I take off I see it come down slightly but it never returns to below 200 once it gets there. 

I have as many people telling me to "run it" as I do telling me these temps will lead to bad things, and that I should be able to keep it between 180-190.

I'm not pushing it hard, just driving down roads at normal speeds or less. I've searched this forum and it seems a lot of others are seeing these temps. What is hard to understand is the inconsistencies.  Some report never seeing temps above 185, while others are chasing the exact scenario as me.  My engine is a fresh rebuild with 600 miles. It also has a fresh oil pump and pressure is great. 

What else could this be? It seems to be running well, but could it be lean enough to cause these temps?



Could it be the water pump? The rebuilder didn't replace it or the oil pump. I was seeing very low oil pressure, so I replaced it. Could the water pump be an issue even if it isn't dripping?

It hasn't overheated yet,  but I also get it moving before it gets close to 220.

Thanks


Edited by jgodfrey - 17 June 2022 at 11:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hamhog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2022 at 7:09am
Are you sure the gauge is accurate? 

Mine ran warm until I got the timing figured out.  Now it's consistent around 190 on hot days.

What's your coolant mixture? 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2022 at 7:42am
At least you have it back together after fixing the transmission leak.

Timing would be the first thing I would check, and fuel mixture could also have an impact.

It is hard to believe the engine was rebuilt using the old water pump and a worn out oil pump, but what usually fails with a water pump are the seals and you say it isn't leaking. If the impeller was worn out, which is unlikely, surely that would have been noticed during the rebuild.

Both of the Jeeps I have running will heat until the gauge hits 180 and then drop back down when the thermostat opens. I drove my CJ2A into town two days ago when the outside temperature was 101 degrees here and it did as it always has done as described above. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drm101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2022 at 7:55am
Can you post a pic of the fan/shroud/radiator? Mine was missing the shroud extension on the radiator and the fan wasn't 1/2 way in/out of the shroud. It makes a difference. As hamhog mentioned, timing is a big thing too. I run as much timing as it will tolerate without detonating. In other words, I advance the timing until I hear detonation, then retard it until it just goes away. Detonation is pretty obvious with my L134. I think I'm around 20 deg initial timing now. I also run a vacuum advance can which helps too. Even with everything working well, the temp on my engine fluctuates a lot. On a cool day many times it won't get over 140 degrees, and on hot days it will see 200 when I am zipping along at 50 mph. One thing I also found out when teaching my son to drive it is that if I run down the dirt roads in 2nd gear, the coolant temps come right down. Put it in 3rd and run around 25 mph and the temps will creep up. If I see the temp go to 210 at idle and then rev it a bit and it comes right down, I worry less about it.    
You can also carefully bend your fan blades at a little steeper angle so they move a bit more air. 


Edited by drm101 - 17 June 2022 at 8:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2022 at 10:42am
Below is a picture of the fan/shroud.  It's not the full shroud, but I really don't want to install that. And it never ran this hot before the rebuild. And it had no shroud at all. Someone before me cut it off. I also added a picture of that.

And yes Oldpappy, no leaks. That plug was firmly in place and doing the job it shouldn't be. The gasket was blown out for the pressure build up.

Now, if I could just figure this out. 









Edited by jgodfrey - 17 June 2022 at 11:05am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lee MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2022 at 1:57pm
Your missing the shroud extension, keep in mind till you get at least a thousand miles on it it may run a bit warm till the engine is broken in and everything finds its happy spot…. 160° thermostat ?, was your distributor rebuilt ?…..

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeeWilly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2022 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by Lee MN Lee MN wrote:

Your missing the shroud extension, keep in mind till you get at least a thousand miles on it it may run a bit warm till the engine is broken in and everything finds its happy spot…. 160° thermostat ?, was your distributor rebuilt ?…..

Lee

  I agree with Lee. I have about 300 miles on my rebuilt and it runs between 200 and 210 on the road at 35-40 MPH. It runs cooler at lower speeds. I believe the temp will come down after the motor breaks in.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2022 at 2:14pm
Originally posted by Lee MN Lee MN wrote:

Your missing the shroud extension, keep in mind till you get at least a thousand miles on it it may run a bit warm till the engine is broken in and everything finds its happy spot…. 160° thermostat ?, was your distributor rebuilt ?…..

Lee
It's a 165° thermostat.  And yes, the distributor was rebuilt. 

How critical is the shroud extension though?  It never had it before and it stayed in the 180° range all day long. 

From a calubration perspective, here are two pictures showing the gauge in the infrared reading. It appears it's actually hotter than the gauge is reading.  





This is before driving it. Just idling in the garage.  After these pictures I took it for a 2 mile round trip drive at 30 mph and the gauge was already reading 190.


Edited by jgodfrey - 17 June 2022 at 3:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2022 at 5:53pm
OK but what was the thermometer reading when the gauge said 190°?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2022 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by Mark W. Mark W. wrote:

OK but what was the thermometer reading when the gauge said 190°?







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2022 at 7:34pm
You said you replaced the thermostat, but the way things are nowadays "new" doesn't always mean something it good. 

Simple to pull out the thermostat and test it. Put it into a pot of water, with a kitchen thermometer and heat the water until the thermostat opens, or doesn't. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2022 at 7:38pm
I tested it before I put it in. It opened all the way and started at 165. 

I watched the gauge and it didn't rise to 180 and drop like the last one.  Instead it stalled at 165 for a while,  then started climbing. 

It had a 1/16th hole in it.

My next try is timing,  but could that be the source of so much heat? 

My vintage tach/dwell arrived today,  but the needle on the tach had fallen off.  I swear.....  I can't catch a break. 




Edited by jgodfrey - 17 June 2022 at 7:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Michaeltru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2022 at 7:56pm
Drive it. Then shut it down. Pull the plugs and see what they indicate by color. What brand/number on plugs?  Yep, timing can definitely cause high temps.  Have you tried running without a thermostat?  Could be carburetion, too.  Could be combo of timing and carburetion. One step at a time

Edited by Michaeltru - 17 June 2022 at 7:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2022 at 8:00pm
Virtually all comments and suggestions apply.
Virtually cannot be a water pump issue.
Bad water pumps leak yet still produce flow.
Ignition timing, valve adjustments, fuel mix (air/gas ratio), unobstructed exhaust, fresh/ tight bores can all effect the temperature.
So long as the engine temp does not boil off pure water your always safe to operate. 212 max is o.k.
The 7psi cap is your safety margin.
Running too cool is actually harder on the block than operating up near 210*.
The # 1 cylinder frequently wears more than all other cylinders because the coolant circulation effects #1 bore the most.

So anyway I’m really wondering about your “new radiator”.
Otherwise….
I suggest you recheck all timing and tappet adjustments, fix the shroud right and give it 2000 plus miles to  “break in”.



Edited by oldtime - 17 June 2022 at 8:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Michaeltru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2022 at 8:00pm
Check temps on radiator when running?  Tank on bottom should be cooler than top tank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote muley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2022 at 10:05pm
Originally posted by jgodfrey jgodfrey wrote:

My vintage tach/dwell arrived today,  but the needle on the tach had fallen off.  I swear.....  I can't catch a break. 

 
whatever you did to offend the jeep gods musta been a beaut..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2022 at 10:22pm
Originally posted by muley muley wrote:

[QUOTE=jgodfrey]
My vintage tach/dwell arrived today,  but the needle on the tach had fallen off.  I swear.....  I can't catch a break. 
 
whatever you did to offend the jeep gods musta been a beaut..

Tell me about it. Some has been self inflicted,  but others are just mind boggling. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2022 at 5:35pm
Yesterday at a family gathering I took several groups of people on 5-10 mile rides.  It was 92 degrees yesterday, so given all of my concerns about heat I could not stop watching the temp gauge.

Overall it stayed around 205-210, but of course if you shut it down when it is that hot it is likely exceeding the boiling point of 50/50 antifreeze.  So, today I called George Baxter at Army Jeep Parts.  He walked me through the math associated with boiling points, safe temperatures, and the likely source of my issue.  He suggested a few things.

1. Measure temps in a few locations using an Infrared thermometer, including several places on the block, top and bottom of the radiator, hoses, etc.
2. Pull the thermostat and run it.  He said it would likely not get above 140-150 degrees.  If it does, it is likely the radiator because coolant would be flowing and it is a matter of heat exchange with the radiator cores.
3. Inspect the radiator itself by comparing the number and size of the cores to the original.  I no longer have my original, so this is going to be tough. (He seemed to lean towards this as the issue, since fluid moving through the engine simply isn't cooling down as it cycles)
4. Run Evans coolant.  He said that I am exceeding my boiling point quite often and that is going to damage the engine in the long run.  (He went into the super-heating of iron molecules, etc. - fun stuff).  Since Evans does not contain water the boiling temp is 375 degrees.

Another topic we got into was the engine rebuild.  Now this is a side note to this thread because I have got to figure out how to get this thing to run cooler.  But, when I told him my freshly rebuilt engine was reporting 90,90,90,100 compression numbers he was shocked (sort of).  He said that it should be in the 120's for a newly built engine.  Now, that being said, he also told me that he had the same issue recently and had his engine builder re-hone the cylinders only to have it come out "about the same."  He thinks there could be an issue with the US maker of the rings, as he has seen a few issues recently.  Unfortunately, my builder believes those numbers are "fine" so I will not be getting any relief on that.

So, here is my question - finally.  Given the position I am in (having spent $500 on the radiator that is in it and no longer having the old one), what is my next move?  The Evans coolant will not bring down temps but will raise the boiling point.  If I pull the thermostat and it still gets up to 205 driving down the road at 35 mph, what the hell do I do?  I called Carl Walck and he said they have sold hundreds of these radiators and maybe 3-4 turned out to be bad.  George can't get his hands on a new one, but at this point I would spring for one if I knew it would solve this issue.  Peace of mind has a high value to me right now.



Edited by jgodfrey - 20 June 2022 at 5:40pm
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