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Still chasing high temperatures |
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Mark W. 
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Sponsor Member Joined: 09 Nov. 2014 Location: Silverton, OR Status: Online Points: 7986 |
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 Posted: 20 June 2022 at 6:18pm |
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90-90-90-100 is piss poor compression for a well worn engine. My engine when I drove it in high school had all cylinders above 100 and it had been driven by my dad to work every day for 7 years and had been run in the Jeep club and family stuff for 11 years I ran it HARD in high school 60mph no OD and it still had well over 100psi in each cylinder when I gave it back to dad. Near as I can figure the engine had well over 65,000 miles on it when I was done with it. Just dads driving it to work amounted to 54,000 miles. And there was all the mileage from all the family adventures and just general running around dad did. then I drove it to work and on dates and some long 800 mile adventures in High school for 3 years. For your machinist/mechanic to say those numbers are fine tell me they either know they screwed something up or they have NO IDEA what it is to rebuild an engine properly. |
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Chug A Lug
1948 2A Body Customized 1949 3A W/S 1957 CJ5 Frame Modified Late 50's 134L 9.25"clutch T90A D18 (1.25") D44/30 flanged E-Locker D25 5.38 Since 1962 |
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Bruce W
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Joined: 29 July 2005 Location: Northeast Colorado Status: Offline Points: 9652 |
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Posted: 20 June 2022 at 7:47pm |
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Is your engine boiling the coolant? Is it spitting water or steam out of the radiator overflow? If you shut it off hot, or even while idling, does it stomp and thump and hiss and whistle? Is it boiling, or just indicating a high temp on the gauge that alarms you? If it’s not boiling, then there is nothing to gain by changing to a high-priced coolant that does not cool any better but does raise the boiling point. And if it’s actually getting that hot, a coolant with a higher boiling point is only a band-aid, the problem still exists. If the coolant is staying in the cooling system, you dont have a problem. 210 degrees is not going to hurt the engine or anything else.
My CJ2-A L-134 runs, according to the gauge, 200* all day long, but an infrared thermometer cannot find a spot on the block or head that is over 184*. And the temp gauge, at 200*, viewed from above, looks like 210. BW
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It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.
Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You! We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep. |
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jgodfrey
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Joined: 07 Oct. 2020 Location: Shakopee MN Status: Offline Points: 663 |
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Posted: 20 June 2022 at 8:09pm |
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I think it's a case of "I'm not dealing with that." I know exactly how the conversation would go. Just like my oil pressure conversation ("would I like to see it higher? Yes. But it's fine. "), and my temperature concerns ("I run my GPW all day at 210, it's fine."), and my initial question about the compression numbers - hoping he'd say 90 was low ("90-100 is good. This is a low compression engine.") So, like many before me I'm stuck. Even if I walked in with my specs sheet he'd say it's a 75 year old engine. To which I'd reply, "that has new sleeves, pistons, and rings." Then he'd just shrug his shoulders. My gut on the temps is the radiator. But why? Hundreds or even thousands are running the exact same one without issues. And according to Carl is the best he can get (still from India - even George Baxter's are from India, but neither know the name of who actually makes them because they come through a distributor. ) But if I pull the thermostat and it drops dramatically, it's the third thermostat that's been in it with the same result? Then what?
Edited by jgodfrey - 20 June 2022 at 8:43pm |
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Steelyard Blues
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Posted: 20 June 2022 at 8:10pm |
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You sure seem to be having a lot of bad luck lately. Micah
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1947 CJ2A 106327, Engine J109205, Tub 97077. Luzon Red
https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/steelyard-blues_topic41024_post397981.html?KW=micah+movie#397981 1965 Johnson Furnace Company M416 #6-1577 |
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jgodfrey
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Joined: 07 Oct. 2020 Location: Shakopee MN Status: Offline Points: 663 |
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Posted: 20 June 2022 at 8:22pm |
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It only spits out a little if I overfill it. So far no steam or thumping. George mentioned that if it's 210 when I shut it off it's for sure boiling as the temps rise before the fall. My goal is definitely not to add a bandaid. I need to solve this and I'm stumped. Grasping at straws. Turns out I'm a bit of a perfectionist (shocker, just look at my threads here. Anal might be a better term), but I'm just trying make sure I'm not damaging things I either dumped a fortune or countless hours of my time into. I just spent 3 days rectifying my T90 "plugged oil hole" mistake. But the tension over a rising temp gauge definitely limits the enjoyment. Edited by jgodfrey - 20 June 2022 at 8:46pm |
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Rus Curtis
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Posted: 20 June 2022 at 9:10pm |
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I like the idea of multiple temp readings. One at the gauge sensor, one at the thermostat housing, etc.
Did you get a bad radiator? Who knows? But a radiator shop could check to see if it's restricted or blocked (may also be able to check flow to see if pump is okay). Do you live near another jeeper where you could "borrow" a radiator to compare? The SM shows compression for an L-head (Table D-104): 90-110psi. The F-head (Table E-114): 120-130 psi. The coolant doesn't boil due to antifreeze mix AND pressure. If the cap wasn't working, or another leak somewhere, you'd see it and/or notice a drop in coolant level. Check para H-15A. It will give boiling temps for water and mix. I couldn't find a reference, in this thread, to belt tension. Also, what about the fins on the radiator. A bunch bent over (other debris)? |
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Rus Curtis
Alabama 1954 CJ3B Bantam T3-C |
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Michaeltru
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Posted: 20 June 2022 at 9:16pm |
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Measure the temps on the radiator. Top vs bottom tanks when engine is running at temp. Have you checked color of the plugs? What have you done with the timing? Carb settings?
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Mike in AZ
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jgodfrey
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Posted: 20 June 2022 at 9:22pm |
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I don't live close to another Jeeper to borrow a radiator from - at least that I know of. I hear such conflicting things about the compression. George said 120ish, and I thought that's what I read in SM too, but I'm clearly off. The fins in the radiator are pretty straight. There are a few bugs in them after last weekend, but nothing excessive. I haven't measured the belt tension but it doesn't sound like it's slipping. It's a new belt and I did (I believe) 1" deflection with a straight edge and a ruler. I could recheck it. I flushed the radiator with a hose before I installed it and it gushed through without resistance. The coolant was pretty cloudy (I had it analyzed and it didn't have oil or gas in it. They didn't flag anything notable. And after the flush it is now very lime green. Could something have blocked the flow after it was installed? Possibly. But the only way to test that is to pull it back out.
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jgodfrey
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Joined: 07 Oct. 2020 Location: Shakopee MN Status: Offline Points: 663 |
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Posted: 20 June 2022 at 9:26pm |
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Plugs looked normal when the oil pump was changed. Except for #3. They had snapped an ear on the intake during reassembly and when it heated up it was not firing on #3. That's been fixed though. Timing is next. Scoutpilot (Rick) will walk me through the steps. I have a tach-dwell on the way. My pressure gauge arrive a week or so ago. The shop said they tuned it when they fixed the intake and installed the oil pump, but that is still my next check.
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Rus Curtis
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Posted: 20 June 2022 at 9:31pm |
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SM, C-17: Belt flex - 1/2". My personal technique is, after adjusting, I grab the gen pully, and with both hands try to force spin it. If it won't slip (any of the pulleys), I'm happy.
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Rus Curtis
Alabama 1954 CJ3B Bantam T3-C |
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jgodfrey
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Posted: 20 June 2022 at 9:33pm |
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Yah. I'll double check. 1/2" is probably what I did. It was over a year ago. |
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jgodfrey
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Posted: 24 June 2022 at 12:06am |
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An update and a sanity check.
Today I pulled the thermostat, drained the radiator, (broke the petcock of course) added Prestone Cooling System Cleaner, and water. When I pulled the thermostat I noticed a thin layer of an off-white creamy kind of sludge on the retention ring, and a small amount of a darker film on the bottom of the radiator cap. Both have been installed for about 150 miles. Very odd for sure since the shop that rebuilt the engine supposedly flushed the system. But ok. I then took it for about a 30 minute drive, not expecting to see temps over 150ish, since there was no thermostat. Well, it went up to 195 pretty quickly and went up to about 205 at a light. So literally very little difference with or without the thermostat. Frustrating. While it didn't go over 205 it certainly feels like I have some clogged or non-functioning cores. I pulled the cap and could see water slowly moving through the top tank. When I increased rpms it moved a lot faster, but I'm not sure what that's supposed to look like. So, sanity check me. Radiator - right? My next step it to finish this flush with the cleaner, drain it, and run one more round with cleaner. Depending on those results the radiator might need to come out. I have no idea why the first round of coolant was so cloudy, but the current coolant is not. Other than the thin film of sludge, I can't figure out what would have caused this all to go south. I have Evans coolant ready to go in, but it won't get close to my jeep until I know what's going on with these temps.
Edited by jgodfrey - 24 June 2022 at 1:19am |
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Oilleaker1
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Joined: 06 Sep. 2011 Location: Black Hills, SD Status: Online Points: 4412 |
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Posted: 24 June 2022 at 7:11am |
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200-210 is not uncommon. Like said if you can't hear it boiling, you aren't hurting the engine. 190 helps burn off oil impurities.
To cool, you need the right flows. Coolant through the radiator and air flow through the cores. Too fast a coolant flow through the radiator it won't cool. Not enough air flow, it won't cool. Lean fuel mixture makes heat. Advanced too far, makes heat. The old original bellows thermostats are the best. I've gone to using them. (ebay) They come with the bypass flow hole from the factory so you don't have a airlock and burp out the coolant when a non holed thermostat finally opens. That is also a good way to crack your engine with a late opening. A head gasket that leaks compression is just as bad as a cracked engine. This screws up the whole cooling operation. Best brand copper head gaskets are now my go to gasket. Felpro one sided steel are the worst. Read the temp going into the radiator, and temp coming out. If it's 220 going in and 175-180 coming out, the radiator is fine. Try checking your new distributor full advance with a light. Might be too much. What do the plug colors look like after about a mile of road speed? Possible main jet too small? Aftermarket Jets can be wrong. White sludge is a sign of moisture getting into the oil. Oil film and sludge on the radiator cap is a sign of leaking into the the antifreeze. A head gasket can do this. cracks also. I hate this. Edited by Oilleaker1 - 24 June 2022 at 7:21am |
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Green Disease, Jeeps, Old Iron!
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Tom in RI
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Posted: 24 June 2022 at 7:16am |
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Sorry to read through this thread and I had the same problem and went through your same fixes. In the end I found an old skool radiator guy who flow tested the radiator and found it was not up to par. Rodding it out wouldnt work because there were a bunch of repairs. In the end he recored the radiator using a new core sourced from Maine Radiator in Lewiston Maine. It was more expensive than a “new” radiator but he saved my original tanks and that was iportant to me.
Problem solved. The GPW can be driven all day at speed in 90 degree heat and the temp does not vary. He also did my M38 with the same finding and result. I’m not sure the shop is still in business. Hope you track it down. |
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drm101
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Posted: 24 June 2022 at 8:57am |
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Add the shroud extension. It does make a difference. I made one from sheetmetal and rivited it in. The fan should be 1/2 way in and 1/2 way out of the extension.
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Dean
'47 CJ2A "Ron" '66 CJ5 "Buckie" The less the Power the More the Force |
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jhg
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Posted: 24 June 2022 at 10:30am |
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X2 on the shroud extension. Incremental improvements will actually gain you significant efficiency improvements on a radiator system design like our jeeps. You are only about 8% of efficiency away from 190*. T
Even with the shroud, you can see the fan/airflow system is not exactly a high efficiency design. So add the shroud and add the horse hair dams ahead of radiator if you have not already. It will help. I can't say that is the only issue here but it is certainly part of it. Nice job on the resto btw. A lot of hard work reflected there.
Edited by jhg - 24 June 2022 at 10:34am |
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1948 cj2a. Rebuilt L-head, steering, T90, WO 636, steering, brake lines. So far.
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jgodfrey
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Posted: 24 June 2022 at 12:13pm |
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Thanks. I plan to put the shroud on, but I also plan to replace the fan itself with a NoS piece from Midwest Military. I will pick that up later today. It has the original fan that was pretty dinged up from abuse. I attempted to flatten out some of the bends but may have slightly lowered the pitch. Again, a simple and cost effective fix "while I am in there." I spoke to a radiator shop this morning recommended by John at Midwest and he was very helpful. He said that they can do a reverse flush of the radiator to see if something has clogged the cores. They can also go as far as a total re-core if necessary. I can't image that would be necessary since it is a new radiator. If they find a defect that would be an RMA issue with Walck's, but one step at a time. He also explained a few things that could still point to the water pump, even if it isn't leaking. At this point I am in the mind of "while you are in there", and thinking I will replace the water pump now. Since I am flushing and draining the system a couple times it is an easy step. Overall - heating issues aside - I have lost confidence in this engine rebuild. When the engine is hot it has a low-end knock that the shop refused to acknowledge. To the point where it almost sounds like diesel. Almost like the connecting rod is out of round. I have seen this issue in some of metalshaper's videos, and it appears to be something that most shops don't check. I want to get to the point where I can confidently just drive. I am past needing perfection (mostly), but reliability and longevity shouldn't be an out of reach goal.
Edited by jgodfrey - 24 June 2022 at 12:15pm |
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Oldpappy
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Posted: 24 June 2022 at 8:03pm |
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"Almost like the connecting rod is out of round. I have seen this issue in some of metalshaper's videos, and it appears to be something that most shops don't check."
Any machine shop I have ever done business with checks the rods for this, but I doubt that is your issue because a knock from that would be present whether hot or not, and you would also be seeing low oil pressure. The compression readings you posted makes me question the "rebuild". Timing has been mentioned several times in this discussion, but I don't know if this has ever been ruled out. Timing can cause overheating, and it can also cause noise from pre-detonation which is often mistook for a "knock". I would try advancing the timing just a little bit. |
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Mark W. wrote: