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Still chasing high temperatures
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jgodfrey View Drop Down
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Points: 663 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 June 2022 at 11:00pm
Originally posted by Oldpappy Oldpappy wrote:

"Almost like the connecting rod is out of round.  I have seen this issue in some of metalshaper's videos, and it appears to be something that most shops don't check."

Any machine shop I have ever done business with checks the rods for this, but I doubt that is your issue because a knock from that would be present whether hot or not, and you would also be seeing low oil pressure. 

The compression readings you posted makes me question the "rebuild". 

Timing has been mentioned several times in this discussion, but I don't know if this has ever been ruled out. Timing can cause overheating, and it can also cause noise from pre-detonation which is often mistook for a "knock". I would try advancing the timing just a little bit.  


I've read conflicting opinions on the compression, and I'm no expert so I'm not sure what to do. The shop said those numbers were "fine." The someone posted that the SM said 90-110 was spec.

Either way I won't win that one with the shop.

I am trying very hard to get the timing and mixture set. But it's been a struggle. I have purchased 2 tach/dwell's off ebay. Both are DOA. The needle fell off one in shipping, and I can't get the other to register a reading at all.

Scoutpilot is waiting in the wings to walk me through that. So I'm stuck.  I'm convinced timing and mixture are part of the problem though.  When the shop "tuned" it, I was mistakenly running 91 octane non-oxy gas. Rick and Joe Deyoung told me to switch to the oxygenated 87 until the fall, then run a gallon of non-oxy to winterize it.

So it was different gas.

Today I did a second round of cleaner and drove it the same route. Temps outside were slightly warmer today (90 vs 92) and temps stayed between 180-190. Then I let it run in the garage for 30 minutes with a house fan on the grill and it actually dropped and stayed at 180 (no thermostat).

The thermostat I pulled was half open. When I boiled it, it didn't start to open until 175 (it's a 165 stat) and didn't fully open until 195. This was a NoS stat too. So I'm going with a 160 from Napa.

I also pulled the water pump.  I don't know if it was rebuilt or not, but below is a couple shots of what I found.  I'm putting in a new pump. I'm tired of the multiple potential issues, and for $60, it's now a "while you're in there" job.

I think the sludge from the rebuild gummed up my new radiator. It's getting better with every flush. The water pump shows that as well.

One other potential factor. I had attempted to straighten the blades of the fan. In doing so, it looks like I took out a lot of the pitch. I got a NoS fan today and it is much more aggressive.  So sitting still my fan isn't moving enough air.

I'm knocking these out and it seems to be a combination of rebuild sludge and my fan straightening. 

Tomorrow the new pump and fan go on and am doing one more flush. Then a drive. 







Edited by jgodfrey - 24 June 2022 at 11:10pm
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Oldpappy View Drop Down
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That pump looks fine to me. 
If you can't get there in a Jeep you don't need to be there!
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Temps are better. Sounds like you might have found the problem with that thermostat. What does the engine look like behind the pump?
Mike in AZ
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jgodfrey View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Michaeltru Michaeltru wrote:

Temps are better. Sounds like you might have found the problem with that thermostat. What does the engine look like behind the pump?

The block looks clear from what I can see.  But I don't know what it looked like before two rounds of cooling system cleaner.
 
This was the second thermostat. The first one and the retainer ring were sludged up and had some rust.  The second one was worse than the first. 

I think the culprit to it all has been the junk inside the block that ended up making the coolant dark and cloudy. The lab didn't find anything significant in it. But it clearly had an effect on the pump and thermostat. 

I think some of the cores were or still are blocked. I don't think I'll put a new thermostat in until I am 100% sure I have a handle on these temps. I've been fooled before that an issue has been resolved, only to have it kick me in the ass for fun. 

I just can't figure out why everything I take apart is covered in weird residue and corrosion. After 700 miles. 

That pump is getting replaced. I fully acknowledge that it's likely fine.  But there is more rust down deep that I couldn't get a good shot of. It spins fine and didn't have play in it. I'll keep it as a spare, but it's not going back in.

Call it a $60 act of frustration, defiance, or whatever.  


Edited by jgodfrey - 25 June 2022 at 1:48am
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Steelyard Blues View Drop Down
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I think I may have mentioned this to you before. If you want to pump a lot of water through that block, Home Depot sells a pvc adaptor that goes from 1/2 npt to a female garden hose. It goes in place of your sender. 

Micah
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https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/steelyard-blues_topic41024_post397981.html?KW=micah+movie#397981

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jgodfrey View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Steelyard Blues Steelyard Blues wrote:

I think I may have mentioned this to you before. If you want to pump a lot of water through that block, Home Depot sells a pvc adaptor that goes from 1/2 npt to a female garden hose. It goes in place of your sender. 

Micah
In place of the temp gauge sender? I don't have heaters in it (yet - I'm reconditioning the driver's side, and the pannier side was an old TropicAir from the 30's so it's not going back in), so I don't have hoses.

Back in the 80's we put that fitting in-line on the heater hose and ran it for a while to flush it. But that's obviously gone.
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Oldpappy View Drop Down
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Temp gauge sender has nothing to do with the heater hose connections. 

It is on the passenger side of the head toward the firewall. If you have a stock style temperature gauge it will be connected to that sender.
If you can't get there in a Jeep you don't need to be there!
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Steelyard Blues View Drop Down
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Remove the temp sender from the head, screw in adaptor, attach hose and pump 1,000,000 gallons of water through your block or until you feel like you have gotten it all cleaned out. You can leave it attached while you run the engine.  

Going from memory. Might have been 3/4.


EDIT: Correcting link. I don't see it at HD anymore. Lowes has it. 1/2 NPT is correct.


Edited by Steelyard Blues - 26 June 2022 at 10:37pm
1947 CJ2A 106327, Engine J109205, Tub 97077. Luzon Red

https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/steelyard-blues_topic41024_post397981.html?KW=micah+movie#397981

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jgodfrey View Drop Down
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A lot has happened in the last week.

I pulled the thermostat and ran three rounds of cooling system cleaner through. I took the radiator to a shop and had it forward and reverse flushed. I installed a NoS fan. I changed the distributor to a NoS IAD-4008. After draining the block again I ran the Evans Prep fluid through and drained it for the final time. I filled it with Evans waterless coolant with a boiling temp of 375 degrees.

I then worked with Scoutpilot to tune it from the ground up. Tach/dwell and vacuum gauge. I got it totally dialed in and it purred like a kitten at 700 rpm.

I then took it for a 50 mile drive.  

The first leg was about 8 miles and temps stayed below 180. I then pulled into a friend's driveway and chatted with him for 20 minutes while it idled. It dropped to 160 degrees and stayed there until I left.

The second leg was another 8 miles with the same results for temps. All very encouraging.

Then the 25 miles home.  This is when temps slowly crept up to 195-200 and stayed there.  Then a big hill.  Temps climbed to 210 and stayed there. The next stoplight they spiked to 220.

Another 8 miles from there to the house and temps came back down to about 210.  This is definitely a heat soak issue, but I can't think of anything to do. The shroud extension arrives tomorrow, so that will help at the stoplights but not going down the road. But I still can't believe that it's necessary when it didn't even have the shroud before, let alone the extension. 

I just don't get it. I mean, this is pretty normal driving at around 30-40 mph.

For a long time the temps were normalizing after they went up, then suddenly it lost its ability to get back down to 180ish.

With the worry of boiling gone I am more comfortable just driving it. But it is still frustrating.

But, it's ready for the 4th. And yes, I know the skidplate is missing.  I haven't put it back on since I put the transmission back in.




Edited by jgodfrey - 02 July 2022 at 1:34am
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Jeff J View Drop Down
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I was just reading back through some of this. On the first page I see someone suggested checking the gauge which was done using an infrared thermometer on the block in various places. It would be a lot more accurate to boil the sending unit. There is a lot of heat being generated from different sources that the cooling system is attempting to control and the metal is pretty much guaranteed to be hotter than the water traveling through it. 

Checking the block in different places with an infrared thermometer isn’t a bad idea. I just don’t see how the temp gauge can be accurately tested by doing so. 


Edited by Jeff J - 02 July 2022 at 8:40am
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RA472A View Drop Down
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I agree.  Calibrate your gauge with boiling water.  I've had some that were off 10-15 deg, but were "functioning".
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I like the suggestion of testing the sending unit.  However, I'd drop a thermometer down in the water also to check more than one temperature point.  Testing the gauge against an absolute (boiling) seems easy.  I read this is how they mark (label) thermometers. 

Referencing your ride where everything acted like it should for most of the trip, in my oversimplification of things, if you drove and it worked but then didn't, I would absolutely change the thermostat.  Its job is to regulate that temperature.  I've had sticky thermostats right out of the box.  I had one that was sticky and exercised it in water (adding boiling water to bowl) to get it to consistently open, I still replaced it as I didn't want it to start sticking again after re-installing.
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Originally posted by Rus Curtis Rus Curtis wrote:

I like the suggestion of testing the sending unit.  However, I'd drop a thermometer down in the water also to check more than one temperature point.  Testing the gauge against an absolute (boiling) seems easy.  I read this is how they mark (label) thermometers. 

Referencing your ride where everything acted like it should for most of the trip, in my oversimplification of things, if you drove and it worked but then didn't, I would absolutely change the thermostat.  Its job is to regulate that temperature.  I've had sticky thermostats right out of the box.  I had one that was sticky and exercised it in water (adding boiling water to bowl) to get it to consistently open, I still replaced it as I didn't want it to start sticking again after re-installing.
Fun fact.  There is no thermostat.  I took it out for the flushing, and to test it. It was stuck partially open and didn't fully open until 200.

As far as a thermometer in the water.  That seems like it would work without a thermostat during warm-up. But I can't take the cap off at 200. 

And wouldn't the temps be off from the gauge sending unit at that location?

The progression of the heat is what eats away at me. It's the second new gauage. The first was a less expensive version sold at Kaiser, Walck's, etc. This one is a higher quality gauge that looks to be constructed just like the original, with the same sending unit, coil over the wire, etc.

Gauge aside, the heat definitely soaks to the point where it can't shake it. It warms up and stays moderate until you give it some extended work. 

With the flushes coming out clean, a verified water pump and radiator, timing set, and no thermostat, this thing should be on the cool side, not spiking at 220 when it is 82 and low humidity.

I'm totally confused.


Edited by jgodfrey - 02 July 2022 at 11:23am
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Sorry, I missed the thermostat removal part.  I would repeat with a thermostat. Two things are possible without a thermostat.  The engine never gets up to operating temp and sludge forms.  The other possibility is the coolant could pass through the radiator faster than it can cool so that leads to overheating.  I'm sure there are a lot of variables that affect which way that goes.

I understood that the sending unit test is off the engine in a bowl with boiling water (like a thermostat test).  That's what I was suggesting with the thermometer.  NOT attempting by removing the cap.  With a controlled bowl of water on your workbench, you would know if the gauge/sending unit is accurate.

You are correct that the sending unit is a spot check at the fitting location.  My suggestion of multiple readings from your laser temp was to see if there were significant differences suggesting problems.

Somebody will figure this out.  Keep at it.
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Rus said:”Two things are possible without a thermostat.  The engine never gets up to operating temp and sludge forms.  The other possibility is the coolant could pass through the radiator faster than it can cool so that leads to overheating.”

Especially at high engine speeds. 
BW 
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Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

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X3 on the thought that without a thermostat the system is unable to cool the water once it hits higher temp.

This is supported by reported temps during the test drive. You are making progress with this, so don't get too frustrated.
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Originally posted by Rus Curtis Rus Curtis wrote:

Sorry, I missed the thermostat removal part.  I would repeat with a thermostat. Two things are possible without a thermostat.  The engine never gets up to operating temp and sludge forms.  The other possibility is the coolant could pass through the radiator faster than it can cool so that leads to overheating.  I'm sure there are a lot of variables that affect which way that goes.

I understood that the sending unit test is off the engine in a bowl with boiling water (like a thermostat test).  That's what I was suggesting with the thermometer.  NOT attempting by removing the cap.  With a controlled bowl of water on your workbench, you would know if the gauge/sending unit is accurate.

You are correct that the sending unit is a spot check at the fitting location.  My suggestion of multiple readings from your laser temp was to see if there were significant differences suggesting problems.

Somebody will figure this out.  Keep at it.
Yep, I'm sold on putting the thermostat back in. I'll go that next. 

The symptoms were similar with the previous 2 thermostats. Heat that builds up and won't dissipate. 

Fingers crossed I guess. 

Thanks Russ, Bruce, and Oldpappy

I'll keep you posted.  And thanks to Scoutpilot for all the help on tuning it.

If anyone has other thoughts on what to try, I'm all ears. 
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  In all of the old-time problem diagnosis guides, under overheating problems, one of the possibilities was always “brakes dragging”. It might be worth checking, not only the wheel brakes but the parking brake as well. 
BW 
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep.
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