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T 19? |
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Bill2A 
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Joined: 01 Mar. 2018 Location: Fort Worth, Tex Status: Offline Points: 517 |
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 Topic: T 19?Posted: 21 June 2018 at 5:26pm |
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From what I think I understand, the T 18 is an updated T 98 and can fit in the same places.
So if that much is true, and the T 19 is pretty much a T 18 with a synchro first, can it fit in the same places a T 98 can? Am I overlooking something? It seems like it would be a great swap. Is there a gotcha?
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1946 CJ2A 14098
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Mike S
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Joined: 20 May 2006 Location: West Coast Status: Offline Points: 2318 |
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Posted: 21 June 2018 at 9:13pm |
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There are various configurations of the above. Check carefully before you choose.
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'47 CJ2A -- #114542
Warn FF D41 rear Lock-Right locker 11" drum brakes Dual master cylinder T90C Transmission 16 X 6 Jeep truck wheels Cooper STT Pro tires |
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oldtime
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Posted: 22 June 2018 at 12:54am |
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I have certainly considered it my self but never fitted a T19 to date.
They are obviously identical concerning length and adapter requirements to the T18. But there are many subtle differences to be aware of. Like PTO port on both sides. Not sure if cases can be swapped or what but some of the parts like main shaft are a little different than a T18. Parts interchange from Jeep to IH to Ford can get rather complicated anyway. You will certainly have to mix IH with Jeep or Ford with Jeep to get one that fits correctly to your Dana transfer case. The only advantage of T19 over T18 is synchronized low gear that is somewhat higher ratio. Higher ratio synchronized low gear would be desirable "IF" you planned to use low gear as your normal "take off" ratio. That obviously implies using first gear for "take off" from all stops. So something like 5.11 low gear means you would certainly consider installing relatively high differential ratios like 3.54 R+P set. To me the greatest plus is the fact that the 5.11 geared T19 provides the most uniform steps of all known transmissions. That means gears steps have the best available proportioning. Example of an idealized mathematical ratio proportioning: 1. 00 / 1.77 / 3.16 / 5.62 And all 25% O.D. splits would be exactly a half of a full gear step .75 / 1.33 / 2.37 / 4.21
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts |
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Bill2A
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Joined: 01 Mar. 2018 Location: Fort Worth, Tex Status: Offline Points: 517 |
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Posted: 22 June 2018 at 1:15am |
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So far, I am just playing 'what if'.
I did notice watching some videos that there are times when 2nd of a granny trans looks like it will be enough, but then part way up it turns out that 1st is needed after all. That's a bad place to have to decide to grind it in or loose all momentum by stopping. I hadn't even thought about the 5.11 one. The even spacing sounds good, though. I was thinking 6.32, just 'cause it's deeper.
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1946 CJ2A 14098
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Ol' Unreliable
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Joined: 25 Sep. 2016 Location: CO Springs CO Status: Offline Points: 4226 |
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Posted: 22 June 2018 at 3:33am |
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The spread from 6.32 to 3.0-something in a T-98 is kinda wide. Going down to 1st while climbing would require a "stop-by-gravity/quick shift/keep moving" kinda move. Not hard to do, but ya gotta be ready for it.
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There's a reason it's called Ol' Unreliable
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Bill2A
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Joined: 01 Mar. 2018 Location: Fort Worth, Tex Status: Offline Points: 517 |
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Posted: 22 June 2018 at 6:21pm |
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There is a 6.32 T 19, also.
It's not like I have never lived with a non synchro 1st. I'm just thinking 'why not make life a bit easier?'
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1946 CJ2A 14098
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Mike S
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Posted: 22 June 2018 at 8:23pm |
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I drove a Ford F250 for years with a T19 with 5.11 low gear, and 3.73 final gearing. Most of these trannies went into trucks with 460 ci engines. With a D18 at 2.47 and 5.38 diffs you can get a 'crawl ratio' in the mid 60's. Pretty decent for most people. I really liked the syncro into 1st when driving back roads. Novak has a bit of information on this transmission and the T18.
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'47 CJ2A -- #114542
Warn FF D41 rear Lock-Right locker 11" drum brakes Dual master cylinder T90C Transmission 16 X 6 Jeep truck wheels Cooper STT Pro tires |
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Bill2A
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Posted: 23 June 2018 at 1:58am |
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6.32 X 2.46 x 5.38 is 83.64.
Deep enough, without pricey TC gears.
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1946 CJ2A 14098
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Mike S
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Posted: 23 June 2018 at 2:50am |
If you like deep gears, I have an SM420 on a coaster in the shop. 7.0 compound low. I have it for the 225 Dauntless I am building but decided to go with a T18/T19 and AA bell housing.
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'47 CJ2A -- #114542
Warn FF D41 rear Lock-Right locker 11" drum brakes Dual master cylinder T90C Transmission 16 X 6 Jeep truck wheels Cooper STT Pro tires |
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oldtime
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Posted: 23 June 2018 at 4:58pm |
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If you go with a 5.11 ratio T19 then it will mandate that you mainly use Ford guts inside the housing.
That's partly due to size difference of synchronizer blocking between Ford and Jeep versions. However the transmission mainshaft would have to be from Jeep or IH. The T19 mandates the addition of a snap ring groove upon the mainshaft. It is required to accommodate the 1st gear synchronizer assembly. So that means you must find a T19 mainshaft that was used on IH / D20 or else have the extra snap ring groove added to a Jeep T18/D20 mainshaft. If your driving an obstacle and find your going too slow.... then shifting to the next higher gear is of little concern other than availability of the proper ratio. Yet if you find yourself going too fast then you may need to downshift to a lower ratio. Between 6.32 and 3.03 times your transfer case ratios your going so slow that coming to a complete stop would generally be of little to no concern. What's of primary importance is that your 1st gear "take off" ratio is correct for general driving. The combined "take off" ratio for the standard Willys is near ideal and it always has been. It's roughly a 15 to 1 "take off" ratio. Or more specifically 2.798 x 5.375 = 15.04 to 1 ratio You would not want to deviate too far from the optimum "take off" ratio. So for example: a T19 at 3.03 second gear would work very well with 4.89 differential ratios. 3.03 x 4.89 = 14.82 "take off: ratio. But 5.38 differentials would be slightly lower yet remain acceptable. 3.03 x 5.375 = 16.29 Don't get your "take off" ratio become to far from ideal. Edited by oldtime - 23 June 2018 at 5:01pm |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts |
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Bill2A
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Joined: 01 Mar. 2018 Location: Fort Worth, Tex Status: Offline Points: 517 |
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Posted: 25 June 2018 at 2:45am |
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Apparently the input is the big issue.
Too short and can't be swapped with T18 because of different gear teeth angles. I wouldn't feel to bad about a 3.03 taakeoff . It's not very far from 2.79 and even less with taller tires.
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1946 CJ2A 14098
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oldtime
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Posted: 25 June 2018 at 4:54pm |
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Yes 6-1/2" of maindrive stick out (Ford T18 or T19 ) is much too short for a Willys engine.
The only decent transmissions for a 134 Willys engine are the T90 A, T90 C or T98 A. I'm installing a T98 A behind the F-134 on my current build. It's a very long and overly tight fit when trying to add an OD plus PTO. Previously built T90 C with OD and PTO was a breeze compared to this because transfer case was moved aft 5-1/2" for T98-A. The OD shifter and PTO interferes where the hat channel crosses under the transmission tunnel. . Ug!
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts |
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BUGSY1
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Joined: 17 May 2018 Location: Grand Junction Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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Posted: 14 July 2018 at 3:07am |
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I'm running a Scout T-19 with 6.32 1st behind odd fire 231 V6 in '53 3B on M38-A1 frame. Had new ears welded to trans to bolt up to stock bellhousing and adapter to t/case. Has been working great for 20 years now and I love it. Running 4.88's in flanged 44 rear, 30 front, both locked up. Fun!
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Bill2A
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Posted: 14 July 2018 at 9:13am |
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The ears help with length, by eliminating one adapter.
Still doesn't make it happen with a Go Devil. What can you tell us about the Scout trans? Different input length, I'd guess.
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1946 CJ2A 14098
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Lee MN
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Joined: 13 Aug. 2008 Location: Harris, MN Status: Offline Points: 4950 |
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Posted: 14 July 2018 at 3:43pm |
Interesting thread!.... The availability of a Ford T-18/19 makes it the easiest to come by and parts availability IMO... I've been considering fabricating a bellhousing to bolt a Ford T-18 directly to an L or F head Jeep engine, it would shorten the package slightly but adapting this to a Jeep still has its share of issues, but would still make this swap much simpler!.... Lee
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LEE
44 GPW-The Perfected Willys 49 2A “If you wait, you only get older” 67 M715 American Made Rolling History |
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oldtime
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Posted: 14 July 2018 at 3:48pm |
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The following basically applies to all T98, T18 and T19 transmissions.
The IH main drive gears are not going to mate with GM nor Willys 134 bellhousings. The Ford main drive gear is just long enough to fit into the old style of short GM bellhousings. Ford main drive gears are 6-1/2" stickout length / same as 9-1/8 OAL The IH cases fit IH engines. The Ford case can be made to fit GM engines. Jeep T18 cases can also be made to fit GM engines. I much prefer to use modified Jeep cases in lieu of modified Ford cases. But either can work very well and both eliminate the need for a front adapter plate when mating to a GM engine. The procedures for modifying Ford or Jeep are quite different. I never fitted an IH case but it would be similar to using a Jeep case. Either a Jeep or a Scout main shaft will be required . Ford main shaft is useless for D18/D20 applications. Otherwise IH Jeep and Ford guts can be used. But mix and matching from one to another becomes somewhat complex. Swapping gear sets by mixing of ratios simply will not work Some parts will swap between these 3 and some will not. Some differences in the cone clutch sizes (2nd and 3rd gear blocking rings) and main shaft pilot sizes are encountered. The very large 1st gear blocking rings are all the same. Jeep rear adapter(D18 or D20) plates are a basic must. IH rear adapter plates are clocked wrong for Jeeps. The Pre 1980 and the Post 1979 transmission housings and shift towers are not interchangeable. The shift patterns changed beginning in 1980.
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts |
|
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|
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Lee MN
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Joined: 13 Aug. 2008 Location: Harris, MN Status: Offline Points: 4950 |
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Posted: 14 July 2018 at 5:34pm |
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Old Time, your knowledge of these transmissions is amazing!
 , but for the most part, most of us commoners that do not have the vast combinations of various makes of parts, and the lengthy search involved to find the golden combination to make the T98/18/19 marry to the D18 may find it much easier to just purchase the adapter kit from Novak. More costly, in most cases but less hassle for most!...Lee
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LEE
44 GPW-The Perfected Willys 49 2A “If you wait, you only get older” 67 M715 American Made Rolling History |
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Bill2A
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Posted: 15 July 2018 at 2:04am |
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Yes, but if you check the Novak site, it pretty much says if you want to use the T19, you can't get there from here.
Sure Novak can adapt the T19 to a D18, but can't help on the other end. No doubt that could be enough if you wanted to have a Ford engine and bell housing involved... I have been known to flog a 302, but not in a Jeep.  If someone wanted to produce a bell housing that mated to an L134 and moved the mounting surface forward enough to just bolt in a Ford T19, I expect they could capture all of a very limited market.
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1946 CJ2A 14098
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Bill2A wrote: