T-18 / T-90 Swap (L-134) |
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Millennium falcon
Member Joined: 20 Sep. 2016 Location: Central PA Status: Offline Points: 1521 |
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Posted: 22 Feb. 2019 at 4:23am |
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I am collecting pieces and preparing to swap a t-18 4 speed into my jeep. My jeep isnt exactly stock but I built my engine adapter to mimic an l-134 and it has a t-90 in it now so the procedure would be the basically same for a stock 2a. Ive been chatting with a few people that have done this.... I'm trying to keep it as simple and reliable/durable as possible. I know the t98 would be easier but I have the t-18 and t-98's are getting hard to find. Im sure some of you will think im crazy.....and you're probably right! haha!
I have had this t-18 sitting in a corner of my dads garage since I was about 17.....it was waiting patiently for me all these years. Now is the time! This was a 2wd version from a 78 ford T-tag truck. I paid $125 for it back then. I bough it to steal the short ford input shaft so I could put that in my cj5. So I stuck the long Cherokee shaft back in it and havent touched it since. This is the 6.34 first gear model. I pulled the top off and it looks pretty good! So I still need the correct input shaft to work with the jeep. So I found a good used original Borg Warner ford input shaft on ebay for $45. They wrapped it up really well! It looks good. So the first challenge here will be the shaft diameter. The willys has a 15/16 10-spline..... the ford is 1-1/16 10-spline. Willys is 7" stick out the ford is roughly 6.5" I have a few different ideas. I can turn the ford shaft down to 15/16" and cut the splines a little deeper. Or, I can leave the shaft the way it is and run a clutch disc from an 81 ford 2.3L. They are 8.5" diameter and have a 1-1/16 10 spline hub. Then comes the issue of the bearing retainer. I'm still working on that. Ive seen people make a spacer that allows use of the t-90 retainer and throw out setup. Or I may end up making one from scratch. The other thing I needed was a mainshaft and a transfer case adapter. The jeep Gods smiled upon me .....I picked this up today on craigslist for $150! I was thrilled. This is a 4:1 ratio T-18 so I wont use it for anything other than parts.. and it came with a good dana20. So, i have my main shaft and transfer case adapter. This one also looked decent inside and had a strange coating in the case. Transfer case appears to had had the seals replaced not long ago. I haven't gotten too far with this yet.... Ive been busy working on the roll cage. Im just collecting parts and doing research as I clean up the parts i have and order things little by little. The plan is to have this setup completely ready to drop in before I tear my jeep apart. I dont want it to be off the road and more than necessary. Updates to come. |
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Gaffer
Member Joined: 06 Nov. 2015 Location: Alabama Status: Offline Points: 174 |
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I have been contemplating the same swap. I have collected a T-18 from 65 F100 with the 6.32 first. I'll be watching. I have batted around the idea of a custom bell housing to deal with the 1/2 inch shorter input.
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-Gaffer
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Millennium falcon
Member Joined: 20 Sep. 2016 Location: Central PA Status: Offline Points: 1521 |
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Yes, that is something Im working to figure out... I do have the advantage of having thick aluminum adapter on my engine that I can modify if needed. Im trying to avoid that though.... Im trying to figure out the depth between the red arrow in the photo. Depending on where the the clutch hub falls on the shaft 1/2" may not cause much problem. A custom pilot setup could be all that is needed. Does anyone know how far the t-90 shaft slides into the clutch disc when its all bolted together?
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Greaser007
Member Joined: 16 Jan. 2018 Location: Anderson, Calif Status: Offline Points: 850 |
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Falcon ! _ _ _ finally some new interest in the T-18 transmission. Yeay
I too have gathered. I like the Clocking of the IH-Scout T-18 / t-case being lower than the T-90 / D-18 setup. I looked at Scout T-18 the other day, and the bottom of the transfer-case is about flush with the bottom of the T-18. The Reason I like this is because of the additional length of +- 3.5-inches the angle of the U-joints gets sharper and if the clocking (drop) of the T-case Output is lower, then that decreases the U-joint angles. _ _ _ a Good-thing for Willys. My thoughts so far: my head is swirling, because everytime I get an idea, I toss it upon review. A first thought was to make an adapter plate, but then the Ford input may be too short if trying to mate to the L134 bellhousing with an adapter plate similar to the one's that were once offered with the F134. I haven't spent enough time looking at input shaft options and such. But, I see you have found a clutch disk that might just work. Do you know the length of the input shaft that was an original option with the T-98 with the F134 ? I know of a gear-maker in Portland, Oregon, who can probably shorten a wagon or pickup shaft to your spec. Another thought, and I am just tossing ideas: turn the I.D. of the L134 bellhousing index hole to match the input bearing retainer you choose. Then, with the transmission up against the bellhousing, fire-up the welder, and with nickel rod weld mounting ears onto the L134 bellhousing to bolt the transmission directly to, alleviating an adapter plate. Then, you have the gear-maker modify your FSJ (full sized jeep) input shaft to the length you need, and he can probably extend the splines further onto the shaft as needed. Don't know about heat-treatment and such, but he would have the source for that. Just ideas, and I have not got down to looking at options either. It makes my head hurt. :) I HAVE searched the net for the Rare optional input shaft that allowed the T-98 to mate to the F134 engine/bellhousing, and have not yet found one . One last thing, the T-18 is a real Booger to disassemble. A NP-435 will literally fall apart in your lap. Very user friendly. Len Edited by Greaser007 - 24 Feb. 2019 at 2:33am |
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otto
Member Joined: 26 Feb. 2012 Location: Orygun Status: Offline Points: 2264 |
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In an earlier post you mentioned a 8.5” clutch disc that would fit the larger 10 spline input shaft. What 2.3L application uses this disc? It may be useful for another project of mine.
Thanks Rob
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47 CJ2A w/fuel injected boat engine
48 CJ2A 64 Ford Econoline Travelwagon If you can't get there in a Jeep, get a motorcycle! |
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Millennium falcon
Member Joined: 20 Sep. 2016 Location: Central PA Status: Offline Points: 1521 |
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Sure! Late 70’s early 80’s 2.3 mustang. Just make sure it’s the 10-spline. It’s 8.5” disc. It will fit the ford 1-1/16” shaft.
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Millennium falcon
Member Joined: 20 Sep. 2016 Location: Central PA Status: Offline Points: 1521 |
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Sorry I havent replied..... I decided to set the tranny aside until I wrapped up this roll cage project. Too many irons in the fire. As soon as thats done my mind and time will "shift" back to this. haha! In the mean time here are some cool pictures a friend of mine sent me... this is his l134 swapped t18. He made an input shaft from a FSJ and made a spacer to reuse the t90 bearing retainer. He drilled and tapped the t18 case to mount the bellhousing. Been working well for him for years.
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Lee MN
Member Joined: 13 Aug. 2008 Location: Harris, MN Status: Offline Points: 4950 |
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Your friend did a very nice job!
Lee |
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LEE
44 GPW-The Perfected Willys 49 2A “If you wait, you only get older” 67 M715 American Made Rolling History |
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Gaffer
Member Joined: 06 Nov. 2015 Location: Alabama Status: Offline Points: 174 |
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I had the same thoughts at one point on modifying an longer input shaft from a FSJ. I am going from memory but questioned if the input shaft from a FSJ T18 would work in the Ford T18. This was based on Fords being very consistent in design and Jeep not so meticulous in standards. It would make since if the both were wide ratio trannys that the input shaft gear would work. The only difference would have to be input shaft spline count, diameter, and bearing retainer. All of those could be addressed with a machined adapter as shown in your friends pictures posted. Just thinking.... From what I can tell it looks like the FSJ input was modified. The original T-90 holes for the bearing retainer were epoxied and the adapter was made to pick up the holes in the T18 and they captured the edge of the bearing retainer. The bell housing was opened to match the new bearing retainer adapter. The threaded holes in the bell housing were drilled for clearance and then the edge was clearanced for the bolt head to bolt the bell to the trans..... I guess its time to take some stuff apart.... This suddenly seams much more plausible. Just thinking out loud....
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-Gaffer
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oldtime
Member Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 4184 |
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No. In general the various internal components do not interchange between Ford, Jeep, IH or other T18 makes. You can mix and match a few parts but others cannot be interchanged. Just depends on the specific parts and the specific makes that you want to interchange. The FSJ input is 1-1/8" diameter while the Ford is 1-1/16" diameter. So the bearing retainer will become a concern. The FSJ input has smaller diameter cone clutch than the Ford version. For that reason the FSJ input will not mate to a Ford 2nd speed gear. Beyond that is another FSJ vs. Ford problem concerning maindrive pilot bore diameter and roller bearings. The above pic shows a Jeep case, a nicely modified bearing retainer and a shortened main drive gear. The best way to approach T18 to 134 engine boils down to whatever a person has to work with. But from my perspective there are certainly some methods that are more desirable than others. One example is that most will promote the use of a Ford case but I find the use of Jeep cases to be more desirable. |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts |
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Millennium falcon
Member Joined: 20 Sep. 2016 Location: Central PA Status: Offline Points: 1521 |
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Thinking and talking outloud can help sometimes! haha!. Yes the FSJ input in the needs modified. They are really long due to the deeper firewall setup. They make a good core to work with. They need cut and turned down...and re-splined. They are 1-1/8" 10-spline... the ford is 1-1/16" 10 spline. Your other observations on the swap pictures posted are correct.
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Millennium falcon
Member Joined: 20 Sep. 2016 Location: Central PA Status: Offline Points: 1521 |
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Ive been working on the swap little by little when im not working on the roll cage. Im going to do some test fitting with the ford shaft to see if I can make it work. I also started working on a backup plan. I turned the FSJ shaft I had down to match the sickout length of the t90. did the lathe work but now its in the mail on its way to moser to get the splines cut.
Here are all 3 shafts... Left =shortened FSJ shaft / Middle = t-90 / right = ford short shaft I also started working on tearing the scout trans apart for the adapter and main shaft. Then I got the pleasure of doing my favorite job....cleaning!!! This thing was nasty! Much better! everything is cleaned and disassembled. Im working on the bearing retainer now.... T18 rebuild kit and spicer 18 gasket kit are in the mail! My transfer case was rebuilt 1500 miles ago) Im just swapping the case to a d20. |
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Millennium falcon
Member Joined: 20 Sep. 2016 Location: Central PA Status: Offline Points: 1521 |
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Started working on my custom bearing retainer tonight. With this little guy I will be able to use the t-90 bearing retainer/clutch pivot and throwout bearing.
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Millennium falcon
Member Joined: 20 Sep. 2016 Location: Central PA Status: Offline Points: 1521 |
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I finished machining the bushing... it still needs drilled but is 95% done.
So now my stumbling block is....a rebuild kit... Since ive got a ford case, a scout adapter and a FSJ input shaft. I need to find out if I need a 20 or 23mm input bearing......my input shaft is in the mail coming back from moser at the moment so I cant measure it... and I dont have the original bearing to measure. I also need one synchro ring with 10mm key slots (ford) and one with 13mm key slots (FSJ) There seems to be so many variations of this trans... its frustrating. I also though about ordering individual parts but that gets expensive! Other people have done this same swap so someone knows what i need! haha!
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chasendeer
Member Joined: 24 Feb. 2012 Location: Napa,CA Status: Offline Points: 1086 |
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Seth
Great work!! Are you going to make any spares for us people without your skills? Jay
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Millennium falcon
Member Joined: 20 Sep. 2016 Location: Central PA Status: Offline Points: 1521 |
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Thanks! I think I better make sure this one actually works before I recommend it to anyone else. The whole time I’m working on this I can’t help but wonder why AA or Novak doesn’t make this conversion??? With the rarity of finding a t98 and how common the t18 is....seems like a no brained. I bet they would sell a bunch of them. If this works and anyone else wants to give it a try I will help you in any way I can.
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Millennium falcon
Member Joined: 20 Sep. 2016 Location: Central PA Status: Offline Points: 1521 |
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OK so i did some measuring and it looks to me like one can measure the bearing surface on the input shaft to determine what size bearing you need... I think??? haha!
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Greaser007
Member Joined: 16 Jan. 2018 Location: Anderson, Calif Status: Offline Points: 850 |
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Falcon:
Today I was doing some measuring on my L134 Bellhousing, and the mounting holes on a T98 trans from an early Ford, '64 maybe, not sure, but supposedly an F-250 with divorced t-case. The mounting holes up top are about 8-1/2" apart. That gives me room to weld mounting ears onto the L134 bellhousing. I didn't check width of trans body to see if there is clutch cable interference. But, just as you have done with your input shaft, that has to be the ticket. Or one ticket of the 103 ways to skin-the-cat. right ! hahahaha Very nice work on that input. Now, I am going to have to call the gear maker in Portland to see if he would be interested in cutting one down for me. From what I remember _ _ _ and it is Foggy _ _ from when I did gobs of research way back in 1984 when I put a T-18 in my CJ-7, was that the output shafts are the same between the T-98 / T-18. Correct me Oldtimer if I am wrong here, but I just have that rosy feeling, because I have one that I have packed around with me since purchasing a garage-full of jeep stuff in 1988. As oldtimer mentioned, there could be differences in the needle bearings from input-to-mainshaft. This I am not familiar with currently. My investigation revealed a pilot hole O.D. on the Scout T-18 bearing retainer of approx. 5-inches, whereas the old Ford T-98 had a bellhousing pilot of closer to 5-1/2-inches so yes there are variances. I centered tape on my L134 bellhousing to see if I had room for welding on transmission mounting ears, and turn the inside of the L134 to about 4-7/8-inch or thereabouts. (which would mean turning down the O.D. of the brg retainer to the 4-7/8 minud .002-inch. I would have to weld a piece of bar stock across the top of the bellhousing to reinforce where the pilot hole is cut near to the top as a stiffener and no-more. Then I can leave the bellhousing in place an remove the transmission separate from the bellhousing. That other guy's pilot / retainer is very clever. I have a question that I am not understanding here. Why is the O.D. of the new aluminum bearing retainer greater than the T-90 retainer ? Are you opening up the diameter of the hole in the L134 bellhousing to accept the diameter of the Aluminum adapter ? thanks Thanks for all the wonderful photos, and there are probably more than a few of us drooling to make this swap. Keep up this great thread ! I know I am liking it. So, today, I wound up wiring-in a 220V outlet for my 225 mig welder, and an outlet for my 220v air compressor. For the last 7-years I have been living off of extension cords from an RV stanchion. A real PIA, but I have made too many moves over the years, and now working out of a barn-conversion-to-shop. Hahahaha _ _ _ good ol "rural America" ways. But, I was wanting to make a template of the front of my old-ford T-98 transmission to lay it over the L134 bellhousing to see how "ear" placement lands. The front of the Scout T-18 transmission I have actually does not have ears to bolt it to a bellhousing, but has 4-studs that must attach the scout bellhousing to the transmission together. Hmm, interesting. after doing some measuring today, I reached maximum brain-pressure, and jumped onto the electrical shop wiring. No conclusions yet. Len |
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