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T-18 / T-90 Swap (L-134)

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Millennium falcon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Millennium falcon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2019 at 3:24am
Maybe if you come over to help! Haha! I’ll be leaving the engine where it is. Way to much involved to move it at this point. Intercooler piping, exhaust, coolant lines....it would be like starting the swap all over. The rear shaft will be short but since my Jeep isn’t lifted The rear shaft is almost flat. Longer would be better but I’ll have to make it work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AKoller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2019 at 12:16pm
How much overall height difference is there between the T18 and T90? Assuming the T18 is taller, how much will you have to lower your crossmember?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Millennium falcon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2019 at 12:35pm
The t18 is much taller. I plan on making a custom trans cover and crossmember so I can keep things as highly as possible but there will be a considerable ground clearence loss compared to the t90. I’ll try to post a picture of the two sitting next to each other. From the center line of the input shaft to the top of the shifter cover the t18 is two inches taller. The big difference is in the lower half. The T18’s has some junk in the trunk. Haha!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greaser007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2019 at 3:57pm
Seth,

   I was reading through a "build" thread last night on the early CJ5 page, I think, and the fella mentioned trying to get connected with the gear maker in Portland and said he didn't have luck getting shaft work from the newer owners since the business sold about 3-years back. That was the outfit I was thinking of using for shaft mods. Do you have your new crossmember planned out yet ?

   On the T-18 install I did on my '77 back in '84, I used 2x 2x 1/4" sq tube.
And then tapered some angle irons to bolt to the original crossmember holes, and it worked pretty slick. The taper allowed the crossmember bracket to slide up over rocks smoothly. Would you like to see a photo ?
   
   Did you have a measurement from the transmission face of L134 bellhousing to the front surface (engine-side) of the clutch-disk-center-hub ?

As I looked through all of your machining photos on page 2, it certainly is more than a Lego-Set puzzle. We would be rich if we got paid $10/hr for all the hours of research and thought that have gone into such a conversion.
_ _ _ and not including all of the time spent making it all work.

   Yesterday, I gave my Scout T-18 a final solvent bath, then Acetone bath and a Dupont-overhaul.     hahahha   ( Krylon "Navaho White" ).

    I should have bought stock in Krylon aerosol spray paint 40-years ago. :)

    I had to check-in on your Build again.

Edited by Greaser007 - 20 Mar. 2019 at 4:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greaser007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar. 2019 at 1:00am
Seth,
   I watched your YouTube vid of your roll bar install. Very cool !
And nice welding skills. You've got a few hours invested in fitting all of that roll bar setup. Busy busy. keep it up.
   Good god, I remember my early years where I would work all day, and then spend all evening in my shop until late hours. Now, I need the wife to give me a swift kick to the seat of the britches to get me moving. hahaha
   But I am still busy in my mind, planning the next move.

   Oh, I took some photos of your turned input shafts with my I-phone to show to some local machinists to see if I can find a "taker." If I show them what I am looking for maybe one will step up to the plate.

   Did Moser mention if they would turn one down and cut the splines ?

   Len
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Millennium falcon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar. 2019 at 2:13am
Thanks! yeah the cage was a lot of work... very different from the transmission project. Not sure which is more of a pain.  haha! Yes moser will do it all.. I just wanted to save some money and I knew i could handle doing the lathe work. They wanted $125 to turn and spline the shaft or $75 just for splines. I just got on their website and emailed their engineering department with my request and a few pictures of what I wanted.  They emailed me shipping instructions and 1 week later I had my new shaft.  



Originally posted by Greaser007 Greaser007 wrote:

Seth,
   I watched your YouTube vid of your roll bar install. Very cool !
And nice welding skills. You've got a few hours invested in fitting all of that roll bar setup. Busy busy. keep it up.
   Good god, I remember my early years where I would work all day, and then spend all evening in my shop until late hours. Now, I need the wife to give me a swift kick to the seat of the britches to get me moving. hahaha
   But I am still busy in my mind, planning the next move.

   Oh, I took some photos of your turned input shafts with my I-phone to show to some local machinists to see if I can find a "taker." If I show them what I am looking for maybe one will step up to the plate.

   Did Moser mention if they would turn one down and cut the splines ?

   Len
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Millennium falcon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar. 2019 at 11:47pm
I started pulling my transfer case today to do the the dana 20 case swap..... I also picked up a jeep t18 adapter for a really good price! I will be using that one instead of the scout adapter. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Millennium falcon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar. 2019 at 4:03am
I think I finally finished all the machining... I had to mill down the front bearing retainer for the D18 because it was hitting the case once I switched to the jeep style adapter. Then I had to Bore out the bell housing for the larger bearing retainer. I also had to mill the inside of the bell flat since the bolts are on the inside now. I used my little alignment tool help center the bellhousing to bore the hole... That got me close then I finished it with in dial indicator. everything fit together perfectly! I must have gotten lucky! haha! Now Im mocking up the shifters and everything and taking some measurements on how everything is going to fit in the jeep. Next up is to assemble the transfer case. 

I dont have much else to say.... so these pictures will say it for me.. lol! 















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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greaser007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar. 2019 at 1:50pm
Seth,
   You must be getting Ansty to try out this piece of artwork, masterfully done.

   I have been in contact with Terri, the gear maker in Portland, and he is concerned about "annealing" and "hardening" and I am sensing he doesn't want to get involved. And he hasn't given any specifics yet on hardness or depth.
   Well, believe me you're gonna love the crawl ratio, and the kids and dogs can walk along the trail faster than the Willys.    My kids loved it because they could easily stay up and for them was a good break from riding. I made a jump seat box out of a folding boat seat over a console box and then had the boat shop upholster the whole thing, so the smallest child got the jump seat.
    hahahaha ( not the dogs ). ( I had a piece of plywood across the fenderwells behind the rear seat of the cj-7 for the Airdale to ride while on the freeway for 6-hours.   hahaha 3-kids and two dogs and 4-days provisions for the 3-day campout in the Rubicon at Buck Island reservoir.
   Your Willys will thank you for the lower gear ratio, and you know your cheeks will ache for days from smiling so much. :)

   I was reading through a thread on the "practicalmachinist.com" forum, and what a mix-match of Opinions on cutting or turning and re-splining input shafts, and, the annealing and / or hardening issues. Wow

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/cutting-resplining-automotive-transmission-output-shaft-275294/index2.html?s=7e638e73d53c68999603aadbf5bdba2f

   Personally for our objective, I tend to go with the opinions of the old-timers who have had great success with their techniques, which may differ greatly from some individuals running a business with "high-liability".
   You and I are doing this for our own benefit, and not for-a-customer.   

    I have a question _ _ _ brace-yourself ! _ _ _ hahaha

   What did you discover, or if you have yet, the amount of splines that will be extending ahead of the engine-side face of the clutch-Disc-hub to the end of splines nearest the pilot bearing when attached to the engine ?

   The Disc hub will move slightly forward as the lining wears, but not more than 1/8-inch or less before the rivet-heads are flush with the lining.

   I read through Oldtimer's threads on the D-18 / D-20 Transfer Case links that he attached to my T-18 thread. Very helpful for me to get a clearer picture of the differences and progression of the two. a 35-year refresher.
   All of the newer photos you have posted are like "willys-candy" for some of us. me anyway.   Aha, you found a jeep rear adapter to lessen the clocking.

   I think I had better do as you mentioned, and send the photos of what I am requesting, to Moser, and wait to hear back.   I'm getting itchy-feet to move forward when my schedule opens up.

   When you milled out the bellhousing, Seth, did the notch near the top cause your tooling to jump much ?   I don't see it affecting much just like when getting a head surfaced and the chamber creates a non-continuous cut. And too, the pilot hole in the bellhousing is not hardened, so should be easy-cutting.
   Any suggestions for us ? (I like your little pilot centering tool).

   On my L134 bellhousing mock-up, I had planned for the new mounting "ears" on the top to have a horizontal web to reinforce the top where it gets machined thin.
(probably not needed, but what the heck, if I am doing some welding a reinforcing web shouldn't hurt a thing), even tho the face of the transmission should not allow the bellhousing to spread. _ _ sharing thoughts.

   On one interest thread the guy placed his annealed shaft in sand to let it cool slowly.
   I may be next with my head-in-the-sand to let my brain cool !   hahahaha
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Millennium falcon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar. 2019 at 3:40am
Ill try to answer your questions as best as possible..... Im not worrying to much about the hardness of the shaft etc... The guy I talked to did the same thing as me back in 2007 and hasnt had any problems with the shaft wearing... Im not going to worry about it unless it fails. 

I had moser make my splines 1/4" longer than the t90 shaft just in case... I measured and I have plenty of stickout to account for clutch wear. 

the bellhousing does loose some material when you bore it out.. I dont believe I am attaching any braces.. since its cast iron If I tried to weld it then it would break! haha! 

Time to install The transmission is in for a test fit.... The problem is......I assembled the trans in my basement! haha that was fun lugging up the stairs. I wheeled it on the jack as far as I could then up the stair to the wheel barrow then into the garage. everything went together smoothly. I needed to install it to figure out how much of my floor needs cut out.. I want to have that part finished before the final install so I can weld nuts and paint the underside. I made the hole large so I will be able to remove the top cover without dropping or pulling the trans. Still have lots to do, but Im slowly chipping away at it. I also modified my throw out bearing collar to make up for the extra thickness of the bearing retainer spacer. I removed 1/4" of material allowing the bearing to press on farther. Then faced it for length. That should give me sufficient space for the bearing to retract and avoid the pressure plate.

 










I cut off these unneeded ears to make the case a little slimmer. 



almost as skinny as a t90! haha....almost 











Its a tight fit....... now ive got some sheet metal work to do. 







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chasendeer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar. 2019 at 4:08am
At least you don’t have to worry about the danger of cutting and welding around gas on your jeep!!!
Looking good. 
Jay
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ndnchf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar. 2019 at 11:28am
Its coming along great.  But my back hurts just thinking about lugging that thing up from the basement!

1948 CJ2A - It goes nowhere fast, but anywhere slow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar. 2019 at 12:26pm
You are gonna like that tranny Gr8 job!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lee MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar. 2019 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by jpet jpet wrote:

You are gonna like that tranny Gr8 job!


X2, very nice work!

Lee
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Millennium falcon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar. 2019 at 11:59pm
THanks Lee!

So many little unexpected details arise with this swap. 



Solved! (dont worry the seat frames had already had the legs replaced)



Its tight but it works. 



Everything is painted. I also welded nuts on the tub so I can do everything from above when working on the tranny. 



Trans cover



Pulled the tranny back out and painted the tub underneath and on top.... then I put all the gaskets in the transmission, and bolted everything together, cleaned and painted it! Its done and ready for the final install. 












I would be a little farther ahead on this but I spent the afternoon yesterday running to get this trailer. I saw it on craigslist really cheap so I couldnt resist. Ive been looking for one just like it for a long time! 6x12. 





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ndnchf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar. 2019 at 12:36am
Tranny looks great!
1948 CJ2A - It goes nowhere fast, but anywhere slow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar. 2019 at 12:50am
Seth,
Your work is amazing. I’m not sure I can hang out with you because I am such a hack. Your jeep will be embarrassed to be seen in the vicinity of Grampa’s Jeep. If can’t be fixed with a 3 lb sledge, I pretty much just leave it.
Thanks for doing such a good job of documenting and bringing us along.
Stan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Millennium falcon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr. 2019 at 3:04pm
Thanks Stan! My jeep would be honored to hang out with GJ! It has the experience and character my jeep lacks!

Im almost done with the swap....Finally! Ive made a great deal of progress over the past few days.... Been working too much to post... haha! I had to make or modify a bunch of tiny things that seemed to eat up way more time than it should have....! 

All the cluch parts needed shortened or lengthened... the ebrake stuff needed relocated or extended. I aded little spacers to the skid plate for now... I plan to put some strategic bends in it so I can remove the spacers to gain 3/8" of clearance.. As of right now I have only lost 3/4" of Ground clearance. 

I finished the rear driveshaft last night... moving on the front today. I also have to move my turbo downpipe a about 2" to clear the front shaft... 

3/4" cross member spacers to replace the factory 3a 1/4" spacers

Narrowing the clutch pivot by 1.375


Done!


Lengthening the clutch rod by 2"


Made 1" extension for clutch clevis. (I re purposed a hunk of the shift lever I cut off the t-18)


3/4" spacers installed


Rear driveshaft split...


Turning it down so it slides inside of the newly cut tube....


Fitting/truing/phasing...


All welded up....


All said and done its 15" from center of the u-joint to the front of the flange.


Done!







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