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T-98 / T-18 trans to L134 bellhousing

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oldtime View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2019 at 2:31pm
Yes all shift towers between T98 and T18 will interchange so long as you do not cross between the 1978/79 design change.
That said there are many small shift tower differences over the years.

Those changes include such things as:
Casting lug differences.
Shift fork to rail fastening system (safety wired bolts vs. spring pins)
Shift fork sleeves
Additions for reverse back-up light switches of various designs and other additional switches.
Many different shapes and lengths of shift levers.



Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greaser007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2019 at 8:10pm
    Oldtime,
   I am not clear yet on the "over-and-down" option.

Is that only for the '79 and later ?

What I am hoping to do is put the Scout T-18 innards into the Ford T-98 case to utilize the Ford bellhousing pattern.

Then I am hoping to utilize whatever means to have the offset rear output.
I really am not so sure of what model Transfer-case is attached to the T-18.
But I should find out as I go along and begin tear-down.

Is there an aftermarket company that makes a rear offset option for the straight-through T-case ?

   Oh, yesterday, I gave the Scout T-18 and T-case a final mineral-spirits bath and rinsed with water and then an Acetone bath and new krylon paint job.
   I was trying to get the transmission put back in the shop before the rain hit. I had it out for 3-days while chiseling grime and petrified grease off.
The color of the Krylon is "Navaho White" and is the touch-up color for my old '71 Winnebago motorhome which sees lots of sun weathering. I think the T-18 in my CJ-7 is painted "Gun-metal" Gray.




I stuffed the Scout T-18 into the shop before the rains hit. I have been scrambling to get this puppy cleaned up for further study.



This above photo shows the numbers on the rear of the T-case.
Look close, and you will see the intermediate shaft retainer-bar is gone !
Whaz-up with this ?   I may have to pull the transfer case next to investigate why the retainer is missing.   Someone has been messing with it in the past.
    ( Do you think they put the hammer-down while 4-wheeling ! I hope so. :)

I know one thing, like Seth says "the transmission will survive the jeep."

    Hahahahaha _ _ _   just moving this mass strains my back.   Ugh
And when it gets tossed into the Willys, it will say Ugh ! _ _ or Oh Boy !

    OK, today the weather is Crappy and Cold. I am huddled down in the cabin where it is warm and dry and Toastie.   

   Lee -   i went by the welding store and they sold me 809 rod to weld the mild steel bellhousing "ears" onto the cast iron L134 bellhousing.
What do you think ?
The guy at the welding shop said it should be better than using Nickle.

   When i get done i could bury it in the sand.   _ _ _ just teasing !
I wonder if my wife would like to bury me in the sand !   Hahahaha

   That is enough jibberish for this update, and at my pace it may be 2020 before i make good progress.
   I have not yet found a machinist to bore out my L134 bellhousing to recieve the T-18 front bearing retainer either, but no hurry.
   My bellhousing has a notch in it, and that may sour the local machinists, so time will tell. I hope not.

by-the-way:   check out the following Link for another t-18 / L134 solution:

http://pavelsuniverse.com/willys/transmission.html

http://pavelsuniverse.com/willys/links.html

     Len

Edited by Greaser007 - 20 Mar. 2019 at 8:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar. 2019 at 12:02am
Quote  I am not clear yet on the "over-and-down" option. Is that only for the '79 and later ?
Correct.... they use different shape of casting for early vs late transmission and the shift tower assembly.

Quote  What I am hoping to do is put the Scout T-18 innards into the Ford T-98 case to utilize the Ford bellhousing pattern.
That should not be a big concern a few of the internal parts will be identical directly inter-changeable and or adaptable.
Right.....Cleaning parts takes longer than everything else.

Could probably tap the "I" shaft out about 1/2" and then spin it back into position for the lock plate ?
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greaser007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar. 2019 at 2:46pm
   Oldtime,   I am still not clear of what I need to have to utilize the "over-and-down" reverse pattern. Is it just the top ?
    Or is the over-and-down specific only to the '79 and later trans cases and the top cover ?

   So, after doing a bunch of reading: my brain feels like a wet sponge !

   And after reading through the Transfer-Case sections on Advance Adapters, and Novak, i have concluded that i have a Dana-20 T-case.

   Now, if i read this correctly on the Advance Adapters site: i can utilize the Offset Rear Output on the D-20 case IF i use the D-18 Internals ?

   Anyone familiar with this ?

   Oh, too, good news, my snow ski buddy called last night while i was on the sofa sleeping, and he gave my wife the phone number for Terri, the retired gear maker from Portland, Oregon. I hope to discuss later today if i can reach him.
edited thread: I just got off the phone with the retired gear maker. He is going to give me the number of a machine shop in Portland that I can call to see if they wish to accept-the-challenge of shortening a long shaft.
He also did say that the minimum charge for annealing or heat treating is $250 so if that is required, the costs will rise quickly. not much help.

   Ok, so the last T-18 swap i did was back in 1984, hmm, 34 years ago !
Being on a "re-learn" today, i am trying my best to get re-aquainted with what is what and what-fits-what, and what-with-what-will-do-What !    Geeze-Louise.

   My brain reaches maximum absorption-overload in minutes, and my Bookmarks are swelling with pages from the .net that i have saved.

   Just like with welding: there are charts available to adjust heat settings and tip sizes for different thickness of metals and the joint to be welded.

   There are charts available for wheel "interchange" and charts available for "electrical load and distance of the run to carry a desired amperage."

Where is the Chart for Willys conversion of parts and pieces ? just kidding.

   Let's see:   teeth count input
               teeth count output
               needle bearing size and number: input to main-shaft
               Input shaft required to mate T-18 to L134
               Input bearing retainer
               Clutch throwout and fork
               on and on and on _ _ _ _ _

    I sent an email to Advance Adapters for clarification on utilizing the offset output to rear axle for the D-20 transfer case.

    More later _ _ _



   

Edited by Greaser007 - 21 Mar. 2019 at 3:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar. 2019 at 3:31pm
You must be a pic oriented kinda guy. and that's O.K.

Take a look at the shape of the 2 different shift  tower gaskets over here on the Novak site..
That alone should explain it.
79 and later T18's use different transmission cases and different shift towers....

TC issue....... yes that's an IH  D20 configuration that you have shown.

Did you read my previous post on D18 and D20 progression ?
I also did a post on TC MODIFICATIONS but have yet to upload any of the D20 modification info.

Read these till they sink in...

This one first...


Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar. 2019 at 3:37pm
Originally posted by Greaser007 Greaser007 wrote:

   Oldtime,   I am still not clear of what I need to have to utilize the "over-and-down" reverse pattern. Is it just the top ?
    Or is the over-and-down specific only to the '79 and later trans cases and the top cover ?

   So, after doing a bunch of reading: my brain feels like a wet sponge !

   And after reading through the Transfer-Case sections on Advance Adapters, and Novak, i have concluded that i have a Dana-20 T-case.

   Now, if i read this correctly on the Advance Adapters site: i can utilize the Offset Rear Output on the D-20 case IF i use the D-18 Internals ?

   Anyone familiar with this ?

   Oh, too, good news, my snow ski buddy called last night while i was on the sofa sleeping, and he gave my wife the phone number for Terri, the retired gear maker from Portland, Oregon. I hope to discuss later today if i can reach him.

   Ok, so the last T-18 swap i did was back in 1984, hmm, 34 years ago !
Being on a "re-learn" today, i am trying my best to get re-aquainted with what is what and what-fits-what, and what-with-what-will-do-What !    Geeze-Louise.

   My brain reaches maximum absorption-overload in minutes, and my Bookmarks are swelling with pages from the .net that i have saved.

   Just like with welding: there are charts available to adjust heat settings and tip sizes for different thickness of metals and the joint to be welded.

   There are charts available for wheel "interchange" and charts available for "electrical load and distance of the run to carry a desired amperage."

Where is the Chart for Willys conversion of parts and pieces ? just kidding.

   Let's see:   teeth count input
               teeth count output
               needle bearing size and number: input to main-shaft
               Input shaft required to mate T-18 to L134
               Input bearing retainer
               Clutch throwout and fork
               on and on and on _ _ _ _ _

    I sent an email to Advance Adapters for clarification on utilizing the offset output to rear axle for the D-20 transfer case.

    More later _ _ _



   
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar. 2019 at 3:48pm
 
Quote Let's see:   teeth count input
               teeth count output
               needle bearing size and number: input to main-shaft
               Input shaft required to mate T-18 to L134
               Input bearing retainer
               Clutch throwout and fork
               on and on and on _ _ _ _ _ 

T18 6.32 ratio must have 17 tooth maindrive gear (input shaft)

The mainshaft gear (output) must match whatever input gear you are planning to use and that will vary  depending on TC  ratio. 

Mainshaft to maindrive pilot bearings size depends upon the make . IH Ford Jeep or other.

T18 Input shaft diameter to 134 depends on clutch hub diameter you plan to use.

T18 Input shaft length to 134 depends on method used to mate T18 to bellhousing

T18 input bearing retainer also depends onn method used to mate T18 to bellhousing

L134 can only accept a driven disk with 15/16" hub @ 8-1/2" / 9-1/4" diameter .
Will also accept 1-1/8" driven disk hub  at 9-/14" diameter
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greaser007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar. 2019 at 2:45am
Oltime thank you for the data !

And, yes I will read through those links, and omg, bear with me, as it soaks in slowly like water-into-a-rock.   hahaha

Remember the days of the 40-meg hard drives on computers ? 1994 maybe.
That is how I equate my out-dated brain, no longer supported.   hahaha.

Yes, I guess I am photo driven for understanding. Bear with me.

    Oh Check this Adapter build on the following link !
I ran across it the other day, and what a solution to the puzzle:

http://pavelsuniverse.com/willys/transmission.html

   This guy's adapter plate is in two-pieces ! It adapted to a wagon I think.

   I have not looked into throw-out bearings and options there, but the guy in the above article cut the length of a front bearing retainer to his desired length. Then too, there are lots of pressed-steel clutch forks out there, and certainly a fork can be fabbed up from several donors after analyzing the geometry of the pivot and arm length and such to get the correct "throw" to depress the clutch-cover / pressure-plate.
   My instincts tell me to stay with the 15/16" shaft diameter end result on the input shaft.
   The 1-1/8" could be tempting, but I may have difficulty finding a throw-out with the correct face circle to mate up to a clutch-cover. Nor have I measured the diameter of the bearing-point of where the throw-out presses against the L134 clutch-cover. The throw-out for the larger shaft will probably be too large of diameter for the L134 clutch cover. Some throw-outs have a pretty large face.
   So, when Willys went to the 9-1/4" disc, did they use a different flywheel with a larger diameter clutch-cover bolt circle ?

   Or does the '46 CJ flywheel accept the 9-1/4" size ?

   This weekend I hope to look through those t'case links.

   We have a week of rain forecast, and I am ready to dry-out. I have committed to go skiing with my 33-yo daughter, and it is storming to beat the band. Two weeks ago, the ski area got 42-inches overnight !   Yikes, the warm lodge sure sounds inviting already.   :)

   thanks for the interest and assistance !

   
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar. 2019 at 3:24pm
Quote  Or does the '46 CJ flywheel accept the 9-1/4" size ?
The  Auburn 9-1/4 " clutch first became available in 1961 and became standard on all CJ's just 2 years later.
After 1960 all F-134 flywheels were drilled to accept both diameters of clutches.

You can drill and tap any of the earlier 134 flywheels to accept the 9-1/4" Auburn clutches.
Genuine OEM NOS Auburn 9-1/4" clutches are still found to be available on occasion.
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greaser007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar. 2019 at 3:08pm
Ken,
how are you doing with the flooding going on ? Are you on high ground ?

Hey, I just did "catch" the length of the T-18 Jeep input @ 7.43-inches, noted on the Novak link you attached. :)   _ _ most helpful.
I take that as the "stick-out" length.
Thanks for the links because they are welcome for not only me but other individuals too. And a competent machinist should be able to drill the older flywheel for the newer 9=1/4" clutch disc. I stored that
   I can get the necessary 7.43" needed out of the existing IH Scout T-18 input currently in my transmission.
   I will plan on sending it to Moser once I hear back from them, and get it removed from the transmission.

   I was doing some investigating about annealing and hardening of input shafts to be modified. What a mixed-bay of tricks and opinions   Geeze.
Like I mentioned in Seth's T-18 to L134 build thread, I would be tempted to go with techniques that have worked in the past for the old-timers who have had success with input modifications for decades.
   Here, we are dealing with a 65-horsepower L134 flathead engine.

The link to the "mixed opinions" I placed over on Seth's (Falcon) T-18 build.
The forum is:   Seth, I hope you don't mind.

practicalmachinist.com

(it seemed there are those individuals who have great success with modifying shafts and splines and some who even weld two shafts together).

There is a cool photo of a Skidder T-18 set-up that I am hoping to post here which popped up on the web doing a T-18 search. I thought it was cool.





The above picture is showing a reverse gearbox for the skidder application.
I have never seen this before until I came across it with the "image" tab selected in my web-search results. I know nothing about skidders but I do know what a 518 Cat skidder is, and did operate one when in my '20's.
Kinda interesting Stuff to keep the brain swirling with ideas.

OCT. 21, 2019 additional Borg Warner SPECIFICATIONS:
http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=96818.0
There are some interesting LINKS in this forum thread.


http://www.numeralkod.com/cross/archivemanuals/warner/automotive%20and%20truck%20transmissions.pdf
The above link shows Borg Warner drawings of numerous transmissions INCLUDING the T86, T90, T98 and the skidder reverse box "L2" sometimes referred to.
NOTE: if you look closely, the drawings show DIMENSIONAL RELATIONSHIPS between gear shaft centers, and bolt centers.
I see interesting articles in the pages of Novak and Adavance Adapters, but why do they not show dimensions ?   The above link of the Borg Warner transmission drawings is the only place to date that I have found dimensions from shaft centers to bolt centers.   why are these dimensions such a Big-Secret ?
I just don't get it.   Len
The reason I say this, is because I spent a lifetime as a technical draftsman, and proper and complete dimensioning is critical to know relationships of where something is located.   Yes, Ken (oldtime) I am drawing-driven. hahahaha

   Below are images of the T-90 transmission face bolt pattern and also the Ford T-18 transmission bolt pattern.   What I find interesting is why don't these index the centerline of the input shaft ?
( I didn't either on my "overlay-sketch" earlier in this thread as I haven't yet determined it or found it yet on the net ).




Borg Warner T-90 pattern


Borg Warner T-98 Ford bolt pattern with mounting ears for other applications.

    This may be helpful for someone who has not found the data yet.

Edited by Greaser007 - 21 Oct. 2019 at 1:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar. 2019 at 4:50pm
Quote  Ken, how are you doing with the flooding going on ? Are you on high ground ?

I live 10 miles from where Missouri dumps into Mississippi.
2/3 of my county is nothing but flood plain.
Mainly black stick mud with layered pockets of river sand.
I live on one of the clay hill areas so no problems ever for myself.
The 2 big rivers are flowing at typical spring high levels but not much out of their banks around here. 
Right now the record Missouri flooding is happening north of KC on the other side of the state.

Maindrive shafts are often stated as stick out length.
Ad 2-5/8" of length for the T18 length going inside the transmission.

Yes I hope to read that info about  re-hardening the shafts.
I would expect a re-case hardened shaft to be a huge plus.
I agree tig welding of a shaft should not be out of the question either.

My brother in law worked the last 50 years as a logger.
I ran his Timberjack 353 cable skidder for about a year.
It's nothing less than a 4WD articulated monster winch machine.
Two cycle Detroit diesel  that you can hear for miles.
Ear plugs required !

It also has the Borg Warner T98 transmission with a foreward / reverser gearbox.
Plenty of gear reduction on huge dual chained and cleated tires.
Talk about 4WD fun in the woods !

Yeah It takes years to absorb all that info.
Then you just tend to forget most all of it when your not doing it.
I guess that's the main reason I hang out on these sites is to keep me thinking.





Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greaser007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr. 2019 at 6:50am
   Thursday, April 04 UPDATE:

   First-off, I have been overwhelmed with my '95 Honda Passport refurb, so I have spent "0" work-time on my T-18 transmission conversion to L134.

   Seth, has given me renewed inspiration to stay after this project. As I mentioned earlier and Bob and Lee also mentioned that it is Tough finding a local machine shop willing to tackle modifying an input shaft because they all cry Wolfe and squeal at the thought of dealing with "hardened" shafts.

    Today - I spoke with Aaron at Moser Engineering, and shared my dismay, and he laughed and said "this is our business, and we are happy to accommodate, and your request is No Problem."    That made-my-day !!    really, I swear I almost did a happy dance.

    Getting astray again - I was thrilled today because I took my Honda Passport on a "maiden-voyage" this afternoon for a drive up to Mount Shasta City, which sits at the 3,500 foot elevation at the base of Mount Shasta with a peak elevation of 14k.
    The Passport project was a mechanics-special with a "bad-transmission."
Anyway, I tore the engine completely down to inspect and mic and refurb. the engine is an all aluminum with factory block stiffener girdle that bolts onto the block after crank install. The 3.2L sohc V-6 engine has some pretty exotic valve-train.   Just yesterday was the first time to drive it out of town, and then today put it to the test climbing the canyon up to Mount Shasta, to make sure my overheating problem is resolved. I had to replace a faulty fan clutch.
Believe me, this Passport is a slug compared to my WRX Subaru.

    So back to the t-18 input shaft modification.
The L134 engine and bellhousing accepts the T-90 configured shaft which sticks out approx. 7-inches beyond the face of the transmission.
( see, I am learning and retaining some data )     ar ar ar :)

    I now have two choices with Moser:

    1)   I can have them cut mine to the 7-inch length for the L134.

    2)   I can have them cut mine to the 8-inch length to allow a 1" adapter
        plate which would preclude the necessity of welding ears onto my L134
        bellhousing. ( I want to try welding the new Ears onto the bell ).

   I have not yet in my life welded mild-steel bar-stock to cast iron.
Way back in 1972 my favorite machinist and I were talking welding forged steel steering components for modification and cast iron.
   His recommendation:    pre-heat the base metal, then make sure you have ample "V" groove to provide adequate "purchase" between the metals to be fused together.   Hmm "fusion-welding" _ _ _ i'm in !
   He said to be sure to relieve the stresses of the weld by peening while the puddle is orange, and to weld in short spurts, peening each segment of weld.
   I don't know if it is a liability or not, but back in '82 while visiting the Mint 400 desert race in Las Vegas, Nevada, on inspection day all the race trucks were on public display.   You wouldn't believe the fabricated pieces that were welded together to build those race trucks.

    I have been doing some research on this concept of mine of welding new transmission mounting "ears" onto the L134 bellhousing for which method to use.

    Here is what I have found to be helpful:

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general-archive/welding-cracked-engine-block-72782/

   In this article there is discussion of brazing or fusing cast iron. I tend to think along with and agree with a couple of old-timers who have successfully welded cast iron. They suggested preheating the base metal and then welding in shorts "stitches" being sure to peen each weld while orange to relieve-the-stresses. Keep welding and peening. until done, then cool slowly in sand.
   Now, I just looked for the welding rod I purchased, and my wife probably put it out in the shop where I didn't want it because of ambient humidity.

   My next Step:   I must disassemble the Scout T-18 to remove the input shaft to send to Moser.

    I am tempted to obtain another shaft to have turned down the the 8-inch stick out length to be used with a 1-inch adapter plate, but that will not happen until I get my current conversion completed. A PUZZLE of Sorts to keep my Brain-gears turning modestly.    hahaha

    So, my question to ken about the "over-and-down" for the shifter:
Can I utilize the over-and-down shift pattern with putting the Scout T-18 gears into the Ford T-98 transmission case ?    I dunno yet.

    Good thing we have sharp minds here to keep us rolling forward.

    More later as I progress !

    Len

Edited by Greaser007 - 05 Apr. 2019 at 7:10am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr. 2019 at 7:35pm
You can swap the guts between these 2 cases....
Some of the internals are identical and many are different.

Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greaser007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr. 2019 at 5:56pm
Ken,

   Help me here if you would again:

If you would describe to me what I must have to get the "over-and-down" shift ?
(over-and-down to reverse).

   Is it the post-79 T-18 that had this shift pattern ?
   And is the over-and-down specific only to that style box, '79 and later ?

   Seth told me he had run into a conflict with the cone on his input shaft.
And he had to source another for his build. I missed the difference.
I am thinking this was because he was hoping to utilize a main-shaft from another trans ?

    I will plan to swap all my Scout T-18 internals into my Ford 2wd T-98 case.
Then I will drill the 2wd case to accept the Scout rear adapter, like the Novak T-18 adapter requires.

    I have come up with another "brain-storm" idea for my new transmission mounting "ears" to be added to the L134 bellhousing:

    I recently purchase a new diamond blade for my angle head grinder for cutting apart previously fabbed steel.
   After digesting all of the theory of welding cast iron or dissimilar metals, I flashed on the concept of sourcing my new "ears" off of an existing Ford truck bellhousing by cutting them out with my new handy-dandy diamond blade.
   That way the new sourced "ears" are already drilled and tapped 9/16" and then when I go to weld the donor "ears" to the L134 bellhousing, I am welding or fusing similar metals.
    My first concept and my mock-up were to use mild steel bar stock "ears".

    I will go sourcing for a bellhousing at Pick-n-Pull.   More later

    Len

Edited by Greaser007 - 07 Apr. 2019 at 5:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr. 2019 at 9:57pm
[quote]
Is it the post-79 T-18 that had this shift pattern ?
   And is the over-and-down specific only to that style box, '79 and later ? [/quote]

I thought we covered that umpteen times but yes 1979 and later T18 regardless of make uses over and down for reverse.
The complete shift tower mainly including the reverse parts were all changed.
The post 1978 cases and shift tower assemblies cannot interchange with pre 1979 cases and shift  tower assemblies.
Seth pointed out that his late type T18 was removed from a 1978 Ford. 
But that is a rarity and not the general rule. 
The real difference is the reverse shape (bulge) of the early vs late T18 case.
Both of your T18 transmissions are over and up so the cases and shift tower assemblies can be interchanged.

Here I just copied this from the Novak site ... maybe it explains better ..

There are two different versions of shift control housings. The 1966-1978 versions hung two cast iron shift forks into the case, with the reverse fork itself pivoting on the side of the case. These earlier T18’s have reverse gear over to the right and up by third gear. In 1979, the reverse shifter fork was moved from the side of the case into the top cover instead and all three forks were changed and made with die-cast aluminum. This later T18 has reverse gear shift pattern over to the right and down by fourth gear.

The earlier shifter versions are readily obvious by the presence of a cast-in boss on the rear, left flank of the transmission. Later Borg-Warner casting tooling was updated and omitted this boss (as in the image, above right). 


Ford used larger inside diameter  blocking rings for direct drive than does the Jeep version.
So the Ford version clutch cones and the associated gears are also of larger diameter.
In other words the Ford maindrive synchronizer rings and 2nd gear have larger diameter.
I say 2nd gear but some may want to call it 3rd gear.
I consider these T18's to function as 3 speeds with an extra LOW gear.
So I tend to call it LOW gear and not 1st gear.
Is everyone getting confused ?  I hope so...  Ha Ha Ha !

By the way unlike many I actually prefer using the Jeep version T98 and T18's.



Edited by oldtime - 07 Apr. 2019 at 9:59pm
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greaser007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr. 2019 at 3:51am
Ken,
   Thank you so much !
Yes, I am confused with the subtle differences. hahahaha
But I am finally getting a grip on the "over-and-down" case requirement. And I too think of these as a 3-speed, with 4th being granny.

So, now, it looks like maybe I should be looking for a T-18 out of a '77 to '79 full-size jeep to get the 6:1 gearing and the longer input shaft to cut-down.

Below is text I copied out of the jeeptech page which helps clarify.

The T-18 was optional on CJs from 1971-1979. The T-18A version used from 1977-1979 is the best transmission ever put in a CJ by the factory since it features a granny low first gear(6:32:1.) Earlier T-18s have the same great strength, but a 4.03:1 first. The T-98 is the predecessor to the T-18 that was an option for CJs from 1955-1970.
Other Jeep trucks also had the T-98 as an option from 1955-1970, the close ratio T-18 optional from 1971-1975, and the wide ratio T-18 from 1976-1979. After 1979, the wide ratio T-18 was only available as an option in the J-20 pickup truck from 1980-1981. This version of the T-18 has the round New Process bolt pattern and 23 spline output, but the adapter is long for a short wheel base Jeep. Earlier T-18s and T-98s used the "Texas" bolt pattern and 6 spline output. The truck version of the T-18 uses a long input shaft compared to the T-98 or CJ T-18s.

   Well, I was just reading this evening on Jeep-tech where the guy was explaining the differences. So, yes, the over-and-down is the Post-79 T-18.
And if I am finally getting this, the post '79 T-18 did not have the Texas pattern.

http://www.jeeptech.com/trans/t18.html

   And, the other day I removed the top of my Scout T-18 and painted a tooth white and counted the input gear teeth - 23. I have a 4:1 granny. (pre-77)
Ha, I didn't remove the top to count when I bought it nor did it rotate the trans to count rotations. So, phooey, it looks like I am keeping my eyes out for another T-18 Donor.
    Somewhere, buried deep within my jeep parts from the early '80's, I have tucked away a T-18 mainshaft with the T-case output, but I cannot remember what it came out of and I now will dig it out of mothballs, and compare it to what I have for the nose size where it goes into the rear of the input shaft.


   Looks like I will be making a trek to a local wrecking yard to hunt for another donor T-18.   And I will be looking closer too for what I am getting.

   Another Setback !   I won't be sending an input shaft off to Moser yet.

   Good news !    I have the Ford Transmission truck bellhousing that came with my T-98 donor case, so and I looked at it today and think I am going to cut the transmission "ears" I need from that bellhousing. I will post photos when I get started cutting the "ears" from the bellhousing. I may be able to cut them out in One-Piece. But not really preferable. This is all just conceptual until I actually begin cutting them out with my new Diamond wheel. And I am ready to put it to the test. ( I have a concrete-cutting diamond wheel that cuts concrete like Butter ).

    Cheers everyone, and Ken thanks for your input and expertise.
    Yep, I have a 4:1 setback. Good Heavens to Mergatroid. :)
    Seth has been through this and has it very well sorted out.

    My wife just shakes her head.

     Len
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr. 2019 at 5:14pm
When I say post 1978.... I mean "after 1978". 
So that includes 1979 vintage but generally not the 1978 vintage.
If you want the reverse gear over and down position you will want one of the 1979 or later T18's regardless of make.

The T18 A is generally considered as the most desire-able  CJ transmission ever.
It was not installed in 1976 but it was available in 1977, 1978 and 1979 and perhaps some 1980 CJ's.
The 1979 has the updated style of case.
Myself much prefer the 1977 and 1978 versions because interchange parts are much more readily available.
That said you can easily take any Jeep T18 transmission and change out the mainshaft to fit engines other than AMC.
So yes J truck and some Wagoneer transmissions are often more abundant and can be very desirable.

Jeep used the Dana 300 TC beginning in 1980. 
So 1980 Jeeps do not have "TEXAS" pattern.

IH still used Texas pattern tranmission and TC in 1980 but not in 1981.
They used a D300 with Texas pattern for 1 year only.
It is considered by many as the"most desirable" transfer case.

No Len I'm certainly no expert.  
I just like texting this stuff out so that I don't forget. Ha Ha Ha !




Edited by oldtime - 08 Apr. 2019 at 5:17pm
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Millennium falcon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2019 at 5:09am
Hey Len, how are you making out? Any new updates?
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