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The Submarine Jeep

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jpet View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov. 2018 at 12:45pm
Gr8 work Nick! Can't wait to see it in person!! Was the winch necessary in that mud hole? Looks like your skid plate is backwards? ... or is that on purpose?
CJ2A #29110 "General Willys"
MB #204827 "BAM BAM"

"We do what we can, and we try what we can't"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jerseyhawg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov. 2018 at 2:24pm
Top notch. Its looks super.

Glenn
He who toils here, hath made his mark.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cj3bmutt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov. 2018 at 3:58pm
Great job on the build. Have considered doing that with the mutt power pack.  Seen that you were having some trouble with it running rich.  Seen in the picture that the return line port is blocked off on the carb.  Could be forcing fuel past the needle and seat due to fuel pressure and causing excess fuel to be forced into the intake.  Will also cause problems when the air temperature gets hit and causes it to vapor lock.  We have also found on our mutts that the fitting going in the back of the intake where the air lines from the distributor comes in is an orifice that will get plugged up and then will take out the coil due to not being able to pull air through and help cool it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nick_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov. 2018 at 4:45am
Originally posted by Cj3bmutt Cj3bmutt wrote:

Great job on the build. Have considered doing that with the mutt power pack.  Seen that you were having some trouble with it running rich.  Seen in the picture that the return line port is blocked off on the carb.  Could be forcing fuel past the needle and seat due to fuel pressure and causing excess fuel to be forced into the intake.  Will also cause problems when the air temperature gets hit and causes it to vapor lock.  We have also found on our mutts that the fitting going in the back of the intake where the air lines from the distributor comes in is an orifice that will get plugged up and then will take out the coil due to not being able to pull air through and help cool it. 

Thanks. I would highly, highly advise against building a Jeep with the Mutt drivetrain. I made new vent lines for the distributor when I built the Jeep. According to the Mutt guru's, that fuel return line is truly an emissions ordeal. Something about fuel vapor and it's not necessary. I leaned the mixture screw 1 turn and it ran substantially better, yet the plugs were sooted up again. Need to adjust it some more - just haven't had time.


Here's some entertainment for your Thanksgiving vacation!



This week I buttoned up a lot of little details. Turn signals, flashers, brake lights, ammo box... pics to come.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nick_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan. 2019 at 3:51am
This weekend was a blast. Unpredictable Indiana weather provided us 1 good day of snow and we took advantage of it. We were the only people at Redbird Off-Road, and got to enjoy the trails alone. It was majestic. My first snow run in the Submarine, and my buddy's last in the JK.


Jeep Verdict: 
-Traction is unreal. In true purist fashion, I've only wheeled Willys Jeeps with the NDT tires. They look cool but that's about it. Although I've never had dual lockers before, I have to give huge credit to the tractor treads. They simply claw their way through terrain. I was driving up hills I couldn't physically walk, nor could my buddy's Wrangler begin to follow. Compared to a stock Willys, I believe the Submarine is on a completely different level of capability. Which was the goal!

-Handling is also great. I was concerned the front limited slip would make turning miserable on pavement/trails. It's just like driving a stock Jeep. I'll probably remove the front locking hubs since I don't need them. Street driving is comfortable and smooth.

-Engine is adequate. I'm taking it easy because I have significant overheating problems, which is why I'm only on open trails. My new radiator should be here soon. You'll notice in the video how rough the engine is running. After the trip we were irritated and messed with timing & the mixture screw. It runs 10x better and doesn't backfire out of the carb anymore. The engine has plenty of power for a trail rig. Since I have so much tire traction, I actually smoked the clutch when all 4 of my wheels were in a tight bind. Mutt's came with a fiber disc clutch, and some later ones a puck type. I can see why. I chose the fiber since it's comfortable and friendly unlike the racecar style puck, but I may look into switching?

-Tranny is inferior on the trail compared to a T90. "Low" gear is not low and I'm "crawling" at 10 mph. Also, reverse is past 4th on the right. In a tight spot you can't slam the shifter between 1st and reverse in the blink of an eye. I would argue it's a superior street-driving tranny than the T90. Just like a T90, 1st and reverse aren't syncro'd. However, since 1st is the "low range" you only use 2nd-4th. Thus you can downshift into the equivalent of a real 1st gear, unlike the T90 where you either bog in 2nd or come to a complete stop to shift. If you're looking to drag race, the Mutt trans is impossible to bang shift from 2nd to 3rd.

-Misc aspects greatly proved their worth. With a 5-point harness, I'm not physically drained; a notable lack of pain in my arms and neck. Those of us in stock Jeeps are exhausted after a trail ride. You don't realize how much strain you put on your body without a harness. On those bumpy trails you're attempting to keep yourself on the seat and drive at the same time. I can drive so much smoother. On a mental note, the roll cage provides immeasurable piece of mind. Even though I didn't go anywhere crazy, it's peaceful knowing you're safe in the event of mechanical failure. Lastly, the dual winches. They're so handy as shown in the video.

Enough talking, time for a picture dump!





I finally reached my goal: drive the Jeep to class. Here is the almighty Sub parked at the IU football stadium. With goggles you can comfortably drive at a minimum 30 degrees temperature.



IU IMU parking lot. 4 am first snow.



The 7.50 tires aren't too much bigger than the 7.00's



The realest picture in my life.



I actually welded a bracket for these accessories to screw on. It's positioned where I can flip the lid and glance down to check my voltage. To the left is the fused power wire.



Barely legal!






Edited by Nick_ - 14 Jan. 2019 at 3:53am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nick_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2019 at 4:23am
It's hard times in the neighborhood. Seems like everything has gone wrong and I'm tired of missing rides.

First is a cooling issue I've battled since day 1. The Mutt radiator mixed with an electric fan wasn't enough for the engine at any temperature. I had a shop custom build (see: $$$$$$) a radiator that fits between the MB headlights and sits on top of the radiator crossmember right behind the grille. This means it will be as far away from the engine as possible while retaining the MB grille. I should have room for a shroud if necessary.

-Fancy modern aluminum with special core setup
-Removable heavy duty front & rear mesh to protect and clean the rad
-Hot rod style overflow tank
-Exact M151 hose inlet/outlet location and sizes



Recently I've been hearing a metallic noise that I couldn't pin down. I thought it was from the body panels rubbing together. Nope... turns out the brand new pressure plate was junk. Pictured is a piece of shrapnel from one of the finger springs. 

It actually jammed between the starter & bell housing, locking everything up and leaving me stranded.



I've also never had the engine run right.
It wouldn't idle unless temp at 180 degrees, spits flames, hard to start...  it was so bad I actually did a compression test. 130 130 140 140 she's essentially perfect.

Ended up finding a vacuum leak on the manifold. I never re-torqued the bolts after running the engine. Still had to pull the drivetrain out to replace the pressure plate. While the engine is out I'm adjusting my valves and setting the points gap, installing new clutch, and replacing the original pilot bearing with a double-sealed one.



One night I was driving around and my feet started vibrating. I thought the driveshaft was coming loose. Turned out the front axle yoke had 3/8 side-to-side slop inside the housing. I unlocked the hubs and ran in 2x4 until getting home.

After further examination, this was completely my fault. When shimming the pinion outwards, I didn't put the shims behind the bearing race - instead added them to the bearing preload shims. Also found out my input shaft bearing was caught on the input shaft - and didn't slide all the way on. This shoved the 2nd bearing (towards the pinon) out of it's race... yikes. Anyways I re-shimmed and it's all good now. Wish I bought a lock-rite and didn't mess with this.



By May I hope to have everything back together. I'm making diff skids, attempting to bleed the brakes and make them actually work, and and and. It needs to be 100% ready for my trip this July.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nick_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec. 2019 at 1:52am
I've been so busy that my build thread itself has been neglected. Luckily, the entire Submarine build series will be featured on JeepWave starting from my initial purchase all the way to its first submersion. Most of the post-Moab shenanigans have been documented on YouTube as well.







________________________________________________________________

This is the post I've been dreaming of for three long years. After all the blood, sweat and tears, the almighty Submarine has conquered full dunking and lived to tell the tale! It was not the beautiful sunny day I imagined. Rather, 40 degrees in the middle of a tropical storm, minutes before the off-road park closed. It took all day to find a spot deep enough to test its abilities. I have the entire story written of this victorious day, and it should be published on JeepWave sometime in 2020.

I want to say thank you to everyone who has commented on this thread throughout the years. I frequently look back and read them. They were my motivation.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec. 2019 at 7:19am
That’s impressive. Did you inspect your cases afterwards? If so, what did you find?
CJ2A #29110 "General Willys"
MB #204827 "BAM BAM"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nick_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec. 2019 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by jpet jpet wrote:

That’s impressive. Did you inspect your cases afterwards? If so, what did you find?

So I'll admit I was a bit lazy. My breathers are only to the top of my fenders. On Day 1 they were full of water, and began leaking out of the knuckles. Knowing I was going to Badlands the following weekend, I pulled the fill plugs and let the excess drain.

Axles: I'm under the believe that Willys axles can't be sealed from water. They would need a low pressure air line to keep pushing water out. Nothing was machined tight enough at the factory to keep oil in, let alone thinner water out.

Trans: All of a sudden it's leaking so bad I can't keep gear oil in it. I believe it's coming out of my output yokes where I drilled and tapped the output shafts. Last engine install i put silicone around the driveshaft flange, but this time I didn't. So did it get water? TBD

Engine: Worked flawlessly. I didn't use the fording valve at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocnroll Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec. 2019 at 3:03pm
Nick, where did you source those tires?

'47 CJ2A PU
'48 CJ2A Lefty

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec. 2019 at 3:12pm
Deep water = high maintenance, at least with my Jeep it is
CJ2A #29110 "General Willys"
MB #204827 "BAM BAM"

"We do what we can, and we try what we can't"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec. 2019 at 6:07pm
That’s pretty impressive. I hope there wasn’t a “Stand by Me” moment after crossing that deep, stagnant water. 😊
47 CJ2A w/fuel injected boat engine
48 CJ2A
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If you can't get there in a Jeep, get a motorcycle!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nick_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec. 2019 at 9:38pm
Originally posted by rocnroll rocnroll wrote:

Nick, where did you source those tires?


BKT AS504 7.50x16. I absolutely love these tires. They have superior grip, ride quality, and predictability compared to NDT's. Even with my welded rear end I get no chirping.

Originally posted by jpet jpet wrote:

Deep water = high maintenance, at least with my Jeep it is
I'm glad you brought this up, because this was always a thought during the build process:

The saying, "speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?
But instead, "Water costs money, how deep do you want to go?

I fully understand my Jeep to the off-road world is the equivalent of a hotrod 10-second street car. It's at the ragged edge of its rational capabilities, however I built it to be less maintenance heavy than any stock CJ2A.

In an ideal world, all I have to do is drain my diffs and repack the front wheel bearings (which is the same for any Jeep, whether fording 2 feet or 6 feet). Maybe grease all the zerks if ambitious. Pretty much every time I go wheeling, no matter what vehicle, I know the diffs will need drained out. I keep a box of gear oil at the shop, and it only takes 15 minutes to do. If I take the time to route an air line to my breathers, this would negate changing fluids.

In a standard CJ2A with extended breathers, you must complete all of the above plus rebuilding the starter, generator, and voltage regulator. The mechanical fan turned into a boat propeller, breaking a fin which shot through the radiator. Now the engine overheated and blew a head gasket. Water filled the distributor and it lost spark. I don't speak from experience... Wink
 
On my first Jeep before I knew any better, I did have to fix all the above but never messed with the wheel bearings. It took 4 years of absolute torture before they seized up and looked like this:



Originally posted by otto otto wrote:

That’s pretty impressive. I hope there wasn’t a “Stand by Me” moment after crossing that deep, stagnant water. 😊

That's my greatest fear! So far I've caught 2 tadpoles and 1 fish.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocnroll Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec. 2019 at 10:51pm
Originally posted by Nick_ Nick_ wrote:


BKT AS504 7.50x16. I absolutely love these tires. They have superior grip, ride quality, and predictability compared to NDT's. Even with my welded rear end I get no chirping.
 
Thanks Nick.....not a bad price either!
 
 
 
 
'47 CJ2A PU
'48 CJ2A Lefty

"Common sense is not that common"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nick_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan. 2020 at 1:15am
Well ladies and gents... the 'Sub is officially dead. But not in the water of course.



At Badlands during "The Dunking" I noticed my trans was leaking pretty bad. Harder to shift, louder noises. When Jeff & I went a couple weeks later, I noticed the trans had leaked all over my trailer again.

Turns out there is a shaft that extends out of the tcase (really??). Bearings were shot, so it wobbled around until it absolutely destroyed the case and is the cause of my oil leak.

Good tcase:



Mine:



The shaft also broke the transmission case internally:



To add salt to the wound, my rear axle is also blown. I went to check the gear oil and nothing came out. Grabbed the yoke and it slopped in/out and up/down pretty bad. Sigh.

Do I have spare trans/tcase parts sitting around? Yes. Will I fix this drivetrain? Eh...
-This engine, and other M151's have a notorious, annoying flat spot in mid rpm
-31:1 horrid crawl ratio which means only a mud buggy
-Kept smoking clutches, had to install a touchy 6 puck



Stage 1 review
Although it's a blast and feels like driving around a middle finger, it's never been reliable, full of headaches and a general nightmare. I slack on posting here, but I have worked on this thing on a weekly basis for the last 3 years. The drivetrain has been out half a dozen times. It's safe to say I've absolutely had it with Stage 1 of this build. 

Stage 2 goals
It will forever be The Submarine and needs to remain 100% waterproof. Dunking into unknown depths without a care in the world is intoxicating. Cold mud makes me warm and fuzzy. However, I need an all-around build. Something that can be enjoyed in Indiana muck, and Rubicon Trail.

Build Comparison
Visualizing builds literally keeps me awake at night, so I took the liberty of making an Excel spreadsheet of my drivetrain options. Here are some key things to keep in mind:

-My current investment is the fact that I already have the 6.0 V8 valued at $750 and the M151 parts to sell at $500
-5.38 axle is replacing my blown D41 with a CJ3A D44
-4.26 is CJ5 30 spline D44 rear and probably D27 up front
-Forgot to add costs of a hydraulic clutch in the "Want" section. Probably $300.
-I already have an adequate cooling system for any engine
-More expensive items in the "wants" column is buying things like motor mounts from Novak rather than fabbing my own in the "needs"



GM 6.0
Truly $3500
Has power steering and power brakes. Absolutely wonderful exhaust note. Requires the most fabrication with moving the firewall, but I'll really have something unique and larger-than-life once it's finished. With skinny 31" tires I should be fine with the upgraded 4.27 axles. Most expensive.

GM 4.3
Truly $1700-2500
On the $1700 cheap side I can have fuel injection, but will require some finessing of exhaust manifold to clear the factory steering box. For a mid range $2500 swap I can have power steering without the power brakes. Exhaust sounds are meh. Any axle choice is acceptable.

F-Head
Truly $1000
The cheapest and easiest route. Waterproofing this engine will be extremely easy with my knowledge from the M151 venture. I can have an exhaust cutout. One pipe goes under the Jeep, and pulling a valve would route it to my current hater pipe. Stock 5.38 axles work great. Street cred is stellar. Downside is just like any other carb which requires constant maintenance and nervous cold starts. Won't have the guts to power slide.

Current Thoughts
Just typing all this out helps decision making. If I wasn't building a fire-breathing RX7 (another project that's out of hand) I would do the 6.0 swap without hesitation. The F-head is enticing, but I do get carried away and think "Man, I should have spent the extra $1500 for fuel injection and power steering." From there it's "But another $1,000 I could have an almighty V8. I've spent more money on worse things." And that's how all my projects get wild.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bobevans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan. 2020 at 4:04am
This is keeping me up at night reading through the dream build.
'48 CJ2A

'56 DJ3A

'79 CJ7

And two of them actually run!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nick_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan. 2020 at 5:27am
Originally posted by bobevans bobevans wrote:

This is keeping me up at night reading through the dream build.
You and me both! 
(Posted at 12:27 am)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pope891 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan. 2020 at 3:10pm
Following this.

For what it's worth, I am in the middle of a 2002 4.3L (fuel injected) / SM465 / D18 swap right now.  I'd be happy to share what I've learned thus far.  I am using many of the parts and adapters that you referenced above (Novak, Herm's parts, Advanced Adapters, etc).

Best of luck!  It's not cheap...
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