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Building a Universal Modified

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Fltfndr View Drop Down
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    Posted: 14 June 2018 at 12:53am
Just wanted to weigh in on this discussion. just finished installing two limit straps on my front end. I had double shock mounts on both sides so I measured at full droop and had 20 inches between the shock pins.  I built 20 inch limit straps for each side.  First time out will be BHR
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2018 at 8:47pm
Just wondering, what is the up/down bias?

How much uptravel from ride height in front? Just at the shock. 
42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2018 at 9:35pm
Strapping the axle at the center is the solution to my problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anvil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2018 at 7:26pm
It's the same, just different.

In the SCab's place, it's IRS so the center section (transaxle) is fixed in place and the straps limit the maximum droop on each axle so I don't destroy the CV joints.  The way its set up I'm limited to just less than 12" of travel.  My point being here that limit straps are super common.

But it's really about the shocks.  Metcalf is saying he doesn't experience the same problem you do with unloading.  Perhaps you have more articulation or travel, but it could also be that your shocks don't have enough rebound damping in the front and not enough compression damping in the rear to slow the rate of your suspension unloading.  If you consider old school drag racing shocks, they would have almost no rebound damping to allow the front end of the car to come up fast and load the rear.  The opposite would be better for you.  My suggestion is that you may find that by having increased rebound damping you might slow the unloading down enough to where it's not a problem for you.  There are adjustable shocks that will give you this and there are shocks that will give you position sensitive damping so that as your shock extends, it can automatically give you even more damping.  YMMV.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2018 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by Anvil Anvil wrote:

.... I run travel limiters on both sides of the rear of my SCab (not a Willys)....
That would reduce my travel from side to side which is not what I want.



How would different shocks and limit straps on each wheel help with this?

Edited by jpet - 12 June 2018 at 1:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anvil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2018 at 12:45pm
It sounds to me like maybe you need adjustable front shocks with more rebound damping or perhaps position sensitive damping (more $$).  I run travel limiters on both sides of the rear of my SCab (not a Willys) but it's the Fox shocks that do all the heavy lifting.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 June 2018 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by jpet jpet wrote:

Originally posted by Metcalf Metcalf wrote:

...Learning when to use it, and when not to will be the fun part.
Yup, At this point it is not always easy to tell when one of the changes I make helps or not because I have more experience the second and third time I try the obstacle.

Quote Having the suspension drop out can help with breakover angle and when you get turtled out on the belly.
Yup. I don't know my shock terminology but my front shocks are rancho and they just resist force, My rear Bilstens push open on their own (whatever that's called)I like that characteristic about them. Eventually, I'd like to change the fronts out to the same thing but I don't want any more lift up front. I wonder how that would work if I used the winch to maintain my ride height, suck it down when climbing hills (if needed) and then let it droop when I'm in a rock garden.


Shock terminology. Basically gas charged vs a pure hydraulic shock. Having the spring/shock force the suspension down is generally called 'preload'

You want to maintain some droop in the suspension front ride height for going down the road. Having no downtravel could get pretty funky pretty quick. Riding on a limiting strap full time at ride height doesn't seem advantageous overall for ride quality.

I'd just leave the suck down slack 99.9% of the time. Try everything without it first, then if you don't make it try dialing some in. I don't see THAT many situations it is going to be a make it or break it thing. Maybe something as steep as the bottom of Axle hill on Pritchett with the short wheelbase. The downside is that it will keep the front end from articulating more as the weight transfers to the rear as you are climbing. It can also kill breakover angle on the crest a bit. If the climb is level side to side it will be ok, but if the front axle needs to articulate you will pick one front tire up sooner. With lockers this isn't a huge deal, but having all the tires on the ground probably gives you more forward traction.



42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nofender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 June 2018 at 4:14pm
just side note on u-joints. 

Tom Woods makes a pretty slick offset joint that solves many bind issues. I’ve used them and they work! 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 June 2018 at 3:20pm
Originally posted by Metcalf Metcalf wrote:

...Learning when to use it, and when not to will be the fun part.
Yup, At this point it is not always easy to tell when one of the changes I make helps or not because I have more experience the second and third time I try the obstacle.

Quote Having the suspension drop out can help with breakover angle and when you get turtled out on the belly.
Yup. I don't know my shock terminology but my front shocks are rancho and they just resist force, My rear Bilstens push open on their own (whatever that's called)I like that characteristic about them. Eventually, I'd like to change the fronts out to the same thing but I don't want any more lift up front. I wonder how that would work if I used the winch to maintain my ride height, suck it down when climbing hills (if needed) and then let it droop when I'm in a rock garden.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 June 2018 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by jpet jpet wrote:

... The u-joint is not a problem because I have the limit strap/winch up front. I only want droop side to side. I really don't want the whole axle to droop that much or it all unloads going uphill..... do I?

I feel like my side to side flex is as much as will fit in the tub. If I go any more, I would have to make more clearance in the fenders and fender wells.


A suck down winch on the front suspension is just another tool in the toolbox. In some places it will help, in others it can hurt. Learning when to use it, and when not to will be the fun part. I have a few friends that run them on their built TJs. I built a mount for one on my new LX45 project.

Having the suspension drop out can help with breakover angle and when you get turtled out on the belly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 June 2018 at 2:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 June 2018 at 1:58pm
Is that a 1200 series or 1310 front u-joint?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 June 2018 at 12:17pm
Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

Then just put some chain links between center of front axle tube and frame to keep from full droop of  front wheels simultaneously.
You can quickly adjust the number of links used for droop till you get it dialed in ???
That should still allow the front to full droop one side at a time and eliminate the possibility of shackle inversion...
... or I can use a suckdown winch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 June 2018 at 12:09pm
Then just put some chain links between center of front axle tube and frame to keep from full droop of  front wheels simultaneously.
You can quickly adjust the number of links used for droop till you get it dialed in ???
That should still allow the front to full droop one side at a time and eliminate the possibility of shackle inversion




Edited by oldtime - 05 June 2018 at 12:14pm
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)

http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 June 2018 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by jpet jpet wrote:

I compare BAM BAM's performance to Grandpa's Jeep. I have followed GJ up some climbs where even though we both make it, GJ seems to do it with less effort. The only significant difference I can see is center of gravity.
The difference i see in these two jeeps is that Bam Bam's driver does it with many more style points, slow crawling many obstacles. This can,  at times, cause a little more tire slippage 
Grampa's Jeep's driver has more of a tendancy to point the headlights at the obstacle and apply more skinny pedal. This results in what may look like an easier time on the obstacle, but is not really, and it's not nearly as stylish.


Edited by smfulle - 05 June 2018 at 3:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 June 2018 at 11:58am
... The u-joint is not a problem because I have the limit strap/winch up front. I only want droop side to side. I really don't want the whole axle to droop that much or it all unloads going uphill..... do I?

I feel like my side to side flex is as much as will fit in the tub. If I go any more, I would have to make more clearance in the fenders and fender wells.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 June 2018 at 11:47am
Oh   I see ...front yoke !
Normally the front yoke is rarely a concern because the front propeller shaft tends to be very much longer.
So roughly how long is this front propeller shaft assembly ?

Hmmm not much I know of to fix that one.
You must have gobs of front end travel.

Did you also grind on the slip yoke end ?
That slip yoke looks to be pretty thick...

Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)

http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/30228766/1/#new
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 June 2018 at 11:33am
Front yoke. Stock Spicer:



The rusty area is where I ground the yoke for relief.

This is a double cardan style yoke that I use as a single.

Edited by jpet - 05 June 2018 at 11:37am
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