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Transfer Case Progression

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Greaser007 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greaser007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Transfer Case Progression
    Posted: 22 Mar. 2019 at 11:05pm
Very good digesting !
Thank you for putting all of this "pictorially" together for us.
I knew most of this 35-years ago, and it faded away over time quickly.
Trying to digest and retain all of this is taxing on the brain and I should be creating a Microsoft Word document for myself, but haven't.
   The internet is full of this information, and a dauntless task to read through to learn. Then, in the end, hands-on is wonderful.

   This has been of great help for me.

   Len

    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct. 2018 at 8:36pm
D18 / D20 Casting Identification

Casting numbers were used by all manufactures.
Ross, Willys, Borg Warner, Dana Spicer and others use them identify their blank castings.
The blanks often times are machined in various ways to create similar yet different parts.
So typically a casting number is not the same as the finished part number.
The only time a casting number is the same as the part number is when only a single part could be machined from any particular casting. 
I expect this basic method of casting identification should hold true for all manufacturers.

A casting number was issued by Dana Spicer to identify various castings prior to machining.
These numbers most often are embossed into the cast
Often times Jeep and IH or others will utilize the exact same Dana Spicer castings and parts.
However the completed IH and JEEP assemblies will certainly be different and so those parts or those assembled units will mandate distinct IH and Jeep part numbers.

Jeep always referenced these various Spicer castings and all other components by way of their own part numbers.
Jeep also used another number to designate every unique transfer case assembly.
If ever a single component of the complete transfer case assembly was changed; then a new assembly number was used to identify each unique unit.
The change required to merit a distinct assembly number could be as simple as a change of the speedometer ratio.

Here you see how Jeep eventually began to identify variations of case assemblies using an assembly number tag.


Small Hole  Castings

My oldest pre-civilian Jeep parts are all long gone but....
Here is a pic of the oldest transfer case that I currently have.
This casting was from well after the early Brown/Lipe era.
It's definitely from a 1960 CJ-3B.
What you see here is the Dana Spicer embossed casting number.
The C-18-15-10 designation was common to all DS small bore cases.
The -3 suggests it's the 3rd variation of this particular casting.
This particular machined casting weighs in at 25-3/4 pounds.


Big Hole Castings

The earliest big hole casting I have is from a from an early 1966 Dauntless CJ-5 with big hole D18 (built in December of 1965)


This particular casting weighed in at 23-3/4 pounds.
As you will see all big hole castings were embossed with C 18-15-24
The "2" indicates that Dana Spicer was already casting their second version of the big hole case by 1966.

Here we see a nearly identical casting from a 1967 IH Scout Dana 20. 


This particular casting weighed in at:24-1/2 pounds.
I can only detect one simple difference between the 1966 Jeep D18 casting and the 1967 IH D20 casting.
The Jeep D18 was tapped for clutch control while the IH D20 casting was not.
So these two cases obviously have the exact same Dana Spicer casting number.
Yet the Jeep part number and the IH part number are completely independent.

Here we see a -5 version of the big hole case.
This particular casting weighed in at 24-1/2 pounds.

Here you see the only design change that occurred sometime between the -2 version and  the -5 version.

Here again is the -2:


And this is the -5:


Here we see a -6 version of the big hole case.
This particular casting weighed in at: 25-3/4 pounds.

The -6 version retains the same Texas pattern re-design as the -5 casting.
But beginning with the -6  the left side fill plug was ommitted and replaced with a rear fill plug.

Remember....Due to rear bearing cap location the rear fill only works with D20 assemblies and not the D18 assemblies.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct. 2018 at 11:05am
Like I said this  attempt toward "Transfer Case Progression" certainly was not intended to be exhaustive.
I opened up about as many gaps as I filled.
Mainly I felt a need to provide some background info before I got started describing the typical transfer case modifications.
IMHO, One really needs a baseline before considering any changes to the assemblies.

I see many things that I failed to mention.
Like the changes made to the intermediate shafts or the change over to  "crimp lock nuts" for the output shafts.
Speedometer drives were never mentioned and so much more that was neglected.

At any rate I hope the text provided at least some small detail that may have been enlightening to the reader.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick G Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep. 2018 at 10:16pm
Such great info, Ken.  Thanks for educating us! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep. 2018 at 11:30am
Quote So all of these questions were spawned by your response to one of my posts in the T90C vs T90A thread that was started by Stev, where I commented that I bolted a twin stick front bearing cap to a D20 case.  I hope that I didn't imply that I built a D20, because I know I didn't build a D20.

Yeah Rick I do follow what you stated.
In fact I believed from the git go that you had a big hole D18 and it was potentially assembled (unknown) using some parts from a D20.
I merely brought that up to hopefully clarify some things for everyone who reads here.
Technically a complete transfer case is termed as a Transfer Case Assembly.
Refer to your Universal Parts List (UPL) or Universal Parts Catalog (UPC).
Only a select few of the individual components can be designated as D18 or D20 parts because so many of the parts are directly interchangeable. 
This specifically implies TC assembly components using the exact same part number.
And so the development of the "silent type transfer case" became an ingenious interchange of parts.

Quote  What I started with was not my original D18, but a single stick, dual thimble, large hole case, that based on the casting number, indicated that it was a D20 (at least the case).  It was built as a D18 with the offset output, however.  I believe it came out of a mid-late 60's CJ5 (?). 

Glad you mentioned casting numbers.
Casting numbers are DS part numbers used to identify specific castings. 
They are not a reliable source that can be used to identify a part. 
Castings are often (but not always) machined in different ways in order to produce different parts.
So two different parts may or may not have the same DS casting number.

Sometime around the late 1960's "transfer case assemblies" were being tagged with a part number specific to the assembly. 
In other words these id tags could be used to designate the specific components required to build the entire assembly.

These transfer case assembly tags have Jeep numbers from the early 1970'S:
They were attached to rear of  case via the intermediate shaft lock tab bolt

The TC ID tags if present can be used to identify the exact model of Jeep and approximate the vintage.
But modified units like a "Super Dana 18" for example will never have a viable ID tag.

 
Quote I believed the D18 large hole and the D20 case are essentially the same,

Yes they are the same but not in all instances.
For example: a late big hole casting removed from a D20 will have the fill plug on the rear and that was never true with the D18 big hole cases.
Perhaps I will check to compare late (1976 on) big hole casting numbers with some earlier big hole casting numbers.

Quote  That is, the large hole D18 and the D20 (assuming both are jeeps) case are nearly identical and interchangable?  

Absolutely true !

Now  to further our interchange knowledge .....that is also true concerning many but not all of the International Harvester  D18 and D20 parts.

IH Scout was a very strong competitor with Jeep from the early 60's into the early 80s.
One way in particular, IH Scout out distanced the  Land Rover and Land Cruiser competition.
IH was obviously American made and they were using the exact same Dana Spicer drive train components.
In a few instances IH was using certain DS drive train components that are IMHO blatantly superior to what Jeep installed on their vehicles.

I'll get into that more as required. 
Our discussion concerning transfer case progressions and modifications has certainly not been exhausted.

Unless we really know and understand all of the time proven old school technology how could we ever hope to rightly advance our knowledge into modifications and prototype development ?






Edited by oldtime - 08 Sep. 2018 at 5:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick G Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep. 2018 at 10:57pm
Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

Quote Ken, am I to understand that both of these cases are D18?  Is one simply a small hole D18 and the other is a large hole D18? 

They both have potential to be D18.
Only the big hole case has potential to be a D20.

Quote  What I'm really wanting to know is what is the difference between a late model, large hole D18 case and the D20 case.

This detail depends on several factors such as Jeep vs IH but basically  upon the vintage of the assembled case.
There are many slight perhaps irrelevant differences between various big hole castings.
I only covered what I thought to be the significant concerns.

Location of the tapped lube fill hole and weather or not its tapped to accept clutch control pivot stud.

So all of these questions were spawned by your response to one of my posts in the T90C vs T90A thread that was started by Stev, where I commented that I bolted a twin stick front bearing cap to a D20 case.  I hope that I didn't imply that I built a D20, because I know I didn't build a D20. This was your response to my comment:

Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

RickG,  your running a Dana 18 transfer case... not a Dana 20 transfer case.
If the big index bore casting was removed from a Dana 20 that does not imploy that you built a Dana 20.

Dana 18's were factory available with either the Small hole (3-5/32" index bore) or Big hole (4" index bore) cases

The twin stick Dana 18 front bearing cap simply will not work with the D 20 transfer case.

So this had/has me very perplexed.  I built a D18 transfer case with Rockeater gears and a twin stick front bearing cap.  What I started with was not my original D18, but a single stick, dual thimble, large hole case, that based on the casting number, indicated that it was a D20 (at least the case).  It was built as a D18 with the offset output, however.  I believe it came out of a mid-late 60's CJ5 (?).  I understand that the internals are different between the D18 & D20 but my confusion was predicated on the fact that I believed the D18 large hole and the D20 case are essentially the same, however your response to my comment in the other thread confused me.  

I think this is what I'm understanding from the bulk of your notes here in this thread.  That is, the large hole D18 and the D20 (assuming both are jeeps) case are nearly identical and interchangable?  You can build either a D18 twin stick or a D20 single stick from the large hole, 2 thimble case, am I correct in understanding this?

BTW, thank you for sharing your vast jeep knowledge with me and others.  I have learned a great deal from you.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jbjeeps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep. 2018 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

This particular TC is mated to a T14 transmission with the Jeep factory D-225 bellhousing adapter
So this is the famous 1967-1971 Jeep factory "Big Hole" D18  transfer case with single stick shift bearing cap .
An excellent unit for your needs.
Remember to ask about its previous application.
Standard for this unit will have 3.73 speedometer gears and optional had a 4.89 speedometer gear set.

This Big Hole transfer case obviously has the side fill plug and will also be tapped to accept the clutch control stud !

Excellent! Thanks for your quick reply! 

Jack
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep. 2018 at 4:36pm
This particular TC is mated to a T14 transmission with the Jeep factory D-225 bellhousing adapter
So this is the famous 1967-1971 Jeep factory "Big Hole" D18  transfer case with single stick shift bearing cap .
An excellent unit for your needs.
Remember to ask about its previous application.
Standard for this unit will have 3.73 speedometer gears and optional had a 4.89 speedometer gear set.

This Big Hole transfer case obviously has the side fill plug and will also be tapped to accept the clutch control stud !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jbjeeps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep. 2018 at 3:40pm
Oldtime: I'm searching for a big hole transfer case that I can put Tera Low gears in and put behind a T90C. I am in touch with the owner of this case.  I think it's the right case. Can you confirm that for me?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep. 2018 at 11:44am
Yes,  ready to post some more  on building transfer cases  SOON...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep. 2018 at 11:38am
Oldtime,

Can you explain the pros and cons of having the cross shaft changed from needle bearings to tapered roller bearings.

Thanks,
Stev
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep. 2018 at 11:34am
Quote  A large hole Dana 18 will only have one shift rail sticking out the back, a 20 has two. You can use both to build a 18 with.  Jay
 
NO ! Disregard that statement.

The main casting is not the transfer case.
Let's not confuse the main casting with the model of transfer case.
That's why it's best to refer to the main casting as either big hole or small hole. 
Not D18 nor D20.
The original application of a main casting is in most ways completely irrelevant to the model of transfer case one plans to build.
 
The small hole castings will only ever have 1 shift rail pocket with no exceptions !
A D20 can never be built from any small hole casting. 

The D20 must be assembled in big hole casting . 
All big hole castings will always have 2 shift rail pockets with no exceptions.

And so a Big Hole D18 will also always have 2 shift rail pockets even though one of the shift pockets is not being used for it's construction. No exceptions !

After my last post here on 30 Aug. 2018 at 11:43am I begin to detail D18 and D20 build concepts.
I do not consider that info to be historical reference so I moved the continutation of this  discussion back over to the modifications forum. 

See: https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/transfer-case-upgrades-and-modifications_topic43110.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep. 2018 at 11:33am
Quote Ken, am I to understand that both of these cases are D18?  Is one simply a small hole D18 and the other is a large hole D18? 

They both have potential to be D18.
Only the big hole case has potential to be a D20.

Quote  What I'm really wanting to know is what is the difference between a late model, large hole D18 case and the D20 case.

This detail depends on several factors such as Jeep vs IH but basically  upon the vintage of the assembled case.
There are many slight perhaps irrelevant differences between various big hole castings.
I only covered what I thought to be the significant concerns.

Location of the tapped lube fill hole and weather or not its tapped to accept clutch control pivot stud.
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chasendeer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep. 2018 at 10:14am
Originally posted by Rick G Rick G wrote:

Ken, am I to understand that both of these cases are D18?  Is one simply a small hole D18 and the other is a large hole D18?  

I presume these are the same two cases just flipped over.  So, does the presence of the large hole and two shift rail thimbles define a D20 case or simply a late model single stick D18?

What I'm really wanting to know is what is the difference between a late model, large hole D18 case and the D20 case.  I understand that the D20 has an extra gear in it and it was a centered output, but are there actually any differences between a large hole D18 and a D20 case?

A large hole Dana 18 will only have one shift rail sticking out the back, a 20 has two. You can use both to build a 18 with.
Jay

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick G Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep. 2018 at 1:35am
Ken, am I to understand that both of these cases are D18?  Is one simply a small hole D18 and the other is a large hole D18?  

I presume these are the same two cases just flipped over.  So, does the presence of the large hole and two shift rail thimbles define a D20 case or simply a late model single stick D18?

What I'm really wanting to know is what is the difference between a late model, large hole D18 case and the D20 case.  I understand that the D20 has an extra gear in it and it was a centered output, but are there actually any differences between a large hole D18 and a D20 case?


Edited by Rick G - 03 Sep. 2018 at 1:57am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug. 2018 at 11:43am
Interchanging of Standard D18 / D20 Components

The big hole casting having left side fill plug was original for both the D18 and D20's.


This pic shows all internal parts that always interchange between D18 and D20  transfer cases. 
(except qty two # 14276 bearing cups that are not shown)


The D18 gear set consists of 4 gears total.
And the full set  includes the transmission mainshaft (output) gear.

Here we see the standard D18 4 gear set of 2.46 ratio:

The complete D20 gear set consist of  5 gears.
So obviously when building a D20 in lieu of D18 it will need the additional (5th) output gear.

Here we see the 5 gear set at 2.03 ratio:


One cannot simply swap (mix / match) individual gears between 2.03, 2.43 and 2.46 ratio sets.
 
D-18's were never factory built using 2.43 gear sets  having the larger 1-1/4" intermediate shaft.
However one may swap the complete 2.43 gear set into a 2.46  case in order to utilize the larger 1-1/4" intermediate shaft.. Or vice versa.

2.43  gear sets will certainly fit into the big hole cases but it would be impossible to build it as a D20 without the extra output gear required for D20's.
That additional gear was never produced.

It is possible to build a 2.46 ratio D20 but only if you find the rare 2.46 (5th gear) required.
Those rare 2.46 ratio TC rear output gears were only used in early Bronco transfer cases.
The Dana Spicer part number is 18-8-58.

And finally it's also possible to place 2.03 ratio gear sets into the small hole transfer cases. 
Of course the extra 5th TC output gear is not used in the D18.

Other rarely seen transfer case combinations are certainly do-able.
I will detail some of these under the heading  "modifications from original" .

In the modification forum I will delve into various aftermarket upgrades and related concerns.
Like building of the "SUPER"  Dana  18.

And it's also possible to reconfigure the D20 into an amazing Unit.

See you there......


Edited by oldtime - 18 Sep. 2018 at 7:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug. 2018 at 10:55am
Sorry the Imgur linked images are going crazy again.
I did not change a thing.
They just dissappeared on this forum but still show in my Imgur account.
I'll just leave it be for now and see if the pics re-surface.

I've just about had it with photo hosting.
Still have not recovered the pics from my Photobucket account.



Edited by oldtime - 30 Aug. 2018 at 10:57am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote willys54wagon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug. 2018 at 11:28pm
according to this the d18 can be enlarged to the 4inch bore and better bearings:

Individuals that have 1-1/8" shaft transfer cases should know that their cases can be precision line bored to accept 1-1/4" intermediate shafts and their larger contingent of bearings, resulting in quieter operation and longer gear bore, shaft journal and needle bearing life. This is a service that Novak provides on request. Cost is $191.25. Contact us.

https://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/transfer-cases/model-18/

anyone done this? not cheap but worth it? maybe in a v-6 conversion?
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