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215 V8 anyone do one in a flat fender.

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Bill2A View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12 Feb. 2019 at 2:29am
After seeing this thread I did some internet searching and found that the reason GM gave up on them was cost.
They had a hard time getting the castings consistant and couldn't find the bad blocks until they were most of the way machined.

The cast iron 300 used different heads and, of course, weighed more, but was otherwise mostly still a larger 215.
If you were to build one from scratch and didn't mind spending money to get light weight it is possible to use the 300 crank in a 215 block for more inches and torque.

The bell housing was only shared with the 198 V6, but if you have one any GM 3, 4 or 5 speed trans will bolt right up to it.
That means SM 420s or 465s are an easy option.

If I had one sitting around and a flat fender needing an engine and trans, I think I'd go for it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote duffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb. 2019 at 10:25pm
Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

Just an abundance of caution on my part.
I've been in water spilling over the hood at times.
I really just don't know how some other aluminum blocks may react from a quick quench in an icy mountain steam.
But if aluminum block was to cool unevenly it may cause it to warp ?
At the very least it's not as rigid as cast iron.

There are all sorts of aluminum block engines now and they may be as numerous as cast iron these days.

I am not aware they have any more problems than cast iron as far as getting a bath.  And it depends on the specific engine block as to whether or not they are as rigid as cast iron.  The Dart block I used is rather robust.  Way more so than any factory block.

42 gpw, 47 2A, 49 3A, 55 3B, 68 CJ5, 5 FC's, 2 wagons, and sort of a Jeep-2012 JKU-R
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb. 2019 at 5:57pm
Quote  Ken, I'm curious why you believe an aluminum block would behave much different than an iron one if submerged.
Well I was really inferring the 215 in particular and not just any or every aluminum block. 
My reason being that I heard about various problems the 215's were having with block cost and manufacture including head problems etc. 
No direct experience so it's just hear say but I've heard that at least in early production the factory was having a time keeping the bore sleeves in tight. ???
The sleeves are cast right into the block.

Just an abundance of caution on my part.
I've been in water spilling over the hood at times.
I really just don't know how some other aluminum blocks may react from a quick quench in an icy mountain steam.
But if aluminum block was to cool unevenly it may cause it to warp ?
At the very least it's not as rigid as cast iron.


Edited by oldtime - 09 Feb. 2019 at 10:54am
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greaser007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb. 2019 at 9:54am
noFender - that was a great Video of "Ugly" the 215 powered Willys.

I actually looked into buying a 215 early 2018.

The guy selling the engine had been into Buick engines his whole life, and he told me that Rover purchased the engine rights from GM for the V-8 engine, which yes, was used in the Rovers, and the fuel injection would be nice.
All of the mating surfaces were very badly corroded, and I passed on it.
   My whole line of thinking was the all aluminum "weight-factor" compared to the heavy weight of the cast iron boat anchor 134. The L134 is Heavy.
There are So-Many newer engines offered today in All-Aluminum configuration, that I figured why go with something so outdated as the 215 V-8 buick.

   Like with a Hay-Baler machine, if a person has a short stroke engine, then it may need a heavy flywheel for rocks or Terra-Low gearing, but look out when you can wind up that Honda accord V-6 up to 8-grand, for horsepower versus the max of 4-grand rpm of the L134 engines. Oh, and with the Honda V-6 you don't need any fancy advance curves in your distributor because the new-day engines have a variable cam timing feature, and don't have points either.

   For sheer torque a 455 Olds engine would dish out plenty for crawling.
And similar to the L134, the 455 doesn't like being wound past 5k, whereas the L134 hits peak power at 4k rpms.

   What I have seen looking at 215 engine parts is Lots of Corrosion. Giving this some thought:   I keep coming up with the same conclusion - operator-error.
   The average Consumer doesn't know anything about the operation of the mechanical components that make-up a vehicle and how it gets propelled down the road. ( other than stepping on gas-pedal and brake ).
So, if the radiator needed topping off the consumer just added water. Hey, glycol Costs-Big-Bucks !
   Straight water is Much-Cheaper, and there was the root cause of the corrosion on the aluminum. or at least a Contributor.
   If the 215 is serviced properly, I think they were a great engine for their time, and they even had a Factory Turbo. There was an old radiator shop owner who told my father that he ran straight anti-freeze 100% with No Water.
Therefore, with the 215, i'd run a 100% anti-freeze, or very little water. I have been very successful running a 80-20 mix for decades even in a turbo-diesel for 15-years and 300k miles.   Water Corrodes aluminum.
    I have been running a turbo 2.0L 4-banger in a WRX Subaru for 12-years with very good adrenaline rushes and still running it today.
   Amazing how so many new vehicles today are going Turbo. Seems I was reading in hotrodder's forum where the flathead engines don't benefit from turbos, but it seems to me that it would boost the output some, especially if the 215 Skylark V-8 had it's turbo replaced with a modern-day turbo with the variable-boost vane design feature for good low-end grunt and no turbo-Lag.


Edited by Greaser007 - 08 Feb. 2019 at 10:17am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote duffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb. 2019 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

I would not want the aluminum block in case I ever ran my rig in deep water.
And IMHO  the short stroke of the 215 is not as desirable as the longer stroke of Buick 198 or 225.

I suppose it depends on the rest of the build and the intended use but I agree with Ken that for off-road use, especially if you like rock, a short stroke engine will be less than ideal.  The 215 generally had someplace between 185 to 200 peak hp at 4800 to 5000 rpms.  The 215 peak torque was 230 to 240 ft lbs at 2800 to 3200 rpms.  For comparison, the 225 was rated at 160 peak hp at 4200 rpm.  Much more significant is that its 235 ft lbs peak torque occurs at 2400 rpm.  Essentially identical torque but the 225's is available at lower rpm.

Add to that the much better availability of 225 parts and I don't see much incentive to use a 215-a decision GM obviously made decades back.

Ken, I'm curious why you believe an aluminum block would behave much different than an iron one if submerged.  I know aluminum has about 3 times the thermal conductivity of iron and that should cause the block to more quickly approach the temperature of the submerging water but would that actually affect hydrolock?  My guess is there would be no discernible difference.  In both cases, the outcome would likely be poor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb. 2019 at 8:44pm
The aluminum Rovers were used through 2004 and of course all of the later versions are fuel injected.
I believe the Rover V-6 was eventually bored up to a 4.0 litre of displacement.

I would not want the aluminum block in case I ever ran my rig in deep water.
And IMHO  the short stroke of the 215 is not as desirable as the longer stroke of Buick 198 or 225.


Edited by oldtime - 06 Feb. 2019 at 9:07pm
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb. 2019 at 1:07pm
Haven't heard the "215" mentioned in years. Back in my day they were quite sought after for a lot of conversions. I actually bought one to put in my  42 GPW. Bought it from a junkyard, got it to the shop, started cleaning all the "crude" off it only to see a rod through the side of the block. Couldn't find another so ended up with a Comet 170 engine. That was a neat story but one for another day. 
The 215's were produced in at least different two forms by GM. The Olds and the Buick. Same basic engine but the Olds had six bolts around the cylinder and the Buick had five. This was to help prevent the aluminum heads from warping. There were other head design differences and piston configurations. Mixing and matching gave you different hp and torque ratings. The basic 'aluminum" 215 weighed about
320 lbs or so. 
The "300's" were the next step up. They were a cast iron block. For one year they used aluminum heads and then went all iron. It weighed in at around 470 lbs. All were about the same length as a small block Chevy so fitment has been done thousands of times. 
Rover bought the rights to the 215 around 1967 and used it into the 2000's or so. Would feel certain they made vast improvements over the years.  
Hope if you go this route you will keep us all informed as to how it goes. Full disclosure, when I "tried" mine and ended up going to Comet engine, the 170 was given to me. Financially that was great because I was sorta young. The year was 1968.

"see you all in the dirt"


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb. 2019 at 4:05pm
I had a friend who swapped out a Buick 225 odd fire V-6 for a Buick 215 V-8. He wanted more power & disliked the sound of the odd fire. In exchange for the 225, I help him R&R the engines. IIRC, The  215 basically bolted right in. We may have had to move the front engine mounts forward 1" or so. I do not recall what we did about the radiator to engine issues. The rest of the drive train remained stock in both configuration & placement.

He loved that engine, & I loved the odd fire. I lost touch with him around 1980. He was still driving that Jeep at the time. I would not be surprised to find out that he still drives it.

I sold the Jeep pickup that I put that 225 into to one of my cousins in 1978. It is still in the family as of today. It still has the Buick 225 in it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lemield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb. 2019 at 2:54pm
Mark,
 
I knew a gal who had one in a flat fender years ago...she liked it a lot. I actually considered that conversion for my Jeep but decided the Kubota diesel was easier to source and made more sense for me.
 
I had a buddy  that was quite a fan of the 215 engines. He put one in a little Vega panel wagon...it was quick...got to drive it once.  The strangest thing he had was a 1969 Corvair spyder with the 215 engine in it, mounted just like the original flat 6 was. Story he told me was that it had an Isky cam that allowed the engine to run in a backwards rotation. Never got to drive that one as I never saw it running.
 
I had 1963 Buick Special with the 215 and I sold it to him. He took the engine out and scrapped the rest. Lost touch with him many years ago....:(
 
 
Larry

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb. 2019 at 12:08pm
Now days imagine the You Tube Following he could have!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb. 2019 at 10:17am
High school friend put one in his FC150. That thing would do reverse wheel stands in 4WD.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nofender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb. 2019 at 5:54am
I've toyed with this for years. In fact even had a 215 engine on the stand. But at the time, I had no means to do the swap and it was sold. I recently stumbled upon a well built 215 in a friend's Vega coupe. It's just sitting - but he won't sell. Maybe I'll break him down. 

Anyway - neat mount. Shares all the dimensions and bolt patterns of the Buick V6 - except longer of course. They are super light for V8 and put out nice power. 

Jimmy Nylund built his 30 years ago and stil runs that motor. Well his motor was from a Rover. BUt same motor nonetheless. He inspired a lot of my build ideas over the years. Look him up. There are quite a few stories on his Jeep and how he built it. 

Short vid of Jimmy and his Jeep. Look up the full episode of DED. It's a good one.





Edited by nofender - 05 Feb. 2019 at 5:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb. 2019 at 2:03am
So someone mentioned a 215 Buick/Olds/Rover aluminum engine as a possible transplant option. I was wondering if anyone on the forum has such a Willys?

When I was 20 a neighborhood friend of my younger brother and his dad were trying to put one in a CJ-3B (I think it was a high hood anyway not positive) and I remember them having me come over since I was known as the guy in High School who drive a Willys to look at it. I never saw it completed and have no idea what happened to the project. I do know right after High school the friend of my brothers went into the USAF and except for visits wasn't around for 20 years when he retired and moved into his dads house (his dad had passed). If I ever bump into him again I'll ask.

Anyway If anyone here has done the swap I would be curious to hear how it came out.



Chug A Lug
1948 2A Body Customized
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Late 50's 134L 9.25"clutch T90A D18 (1.25") D44/30 flanged E-Locker D25 5.38 Since 1962
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