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Topic ClosedGlass bowl Fuel Pump - OE or not?

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samcj2a View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Glass bowl Fuel Pump - OE or not?
    Posted: 17 Aug. 2007 at 5:48pm
I'm starting this thread to avoid hijacking anymore threads to whine about the question of whether or not any 2As came with the glass bowl fuel pump.  
 
Until very recently, I thought that the glass bowl pump was the only correct pump for a 2A.  In 1957 my first 2A, a Harvest Tan column shifter was rough but had mostly original stuff on it, however banged up.  Among those things was a glass bowl fuel pump.  Both 2As that I own now have glass bowl pumps.  Most of the pumps you see on 2As have glass bowls.  Sadly for me and anyone else that thinks they are original, the Willys Parts Lists include only the metal bowl part.
 
The parts lists have plenty of errors including a fairly obvious part number error in one of the fuel pump parts.  Unfortunately, it is very difficult to prove that any existing glass bowl pump was original to the Jeep because there aren't too many one-owner 2As.  Also, how many period photos have you seen with the hood up and the camera pointed towards the fuel pump?
 
Before I completely give up my long held belief that the glass bowl is one of the correct pieces, I thought I'd start this thread to attract any information on the topic in one spot.  All evidence is welcome!  Period photos of 2A fuel pumps are particularly welcome! LOL


Edited by samcj2a - 20 Aug. 2007 at 2:19pm
Sam

1946 CJ2A   15292 ACM    6678

1947 CJ2A 122031 ACM 111989

Are Glass Bowl Fuel Pumps OE?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug. 2007 at 6:24pm
Out of all the jeep engines and Jeep 2A's I own, the only metal bowls are on military genset engines. However, all that proves is that the majority of jeep pumps including replacement pumps in NY and TX have glass bowls. I haven't even found any military jeeps with the metal bowl.
 
My theory is the replacement fuel pump market only gave glass bowls with new pumps or rebuilds as they are far more useful to the mechanic troubleshooter. I also think pumps are a frequently replaced item on any jeep, and chances of an original pump staying with any jeep more than 4-5 years from new are slim.
 
Original pictures are gonna be the best proof of factory glass pumps.
 
 
If you haven't checked out the tech FAQ section, go to:
http://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/tech-faq_forum57.html
for a lot of great stuff you need to know!!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug. 2007 at 9:23pm
Sam:

I have to agree w/F_Bill.  Chances that an original fuel pump has lasted 60 years is slim.  I'd guess that most have been replaced at some time.

There are ways to tell though.  Easiest done w/the pump removed from the engine, otherwise you'll have to clean it good and use a small mirror & flashlight:
  • A genuine AC pump will have "AC" stamped or cast on it somewhere.
  • A genuine AC pump from the period '45 through '48 will have a date casting.
  • The bail nut should have 10-points up to '48.
    

See the other examples I posted earlier:

     Four fuel pumps

No period photos that I know of, but some real CJs:

Gary Arfs from #34692:  Fuel pump - in the parts list

Connomans #10371:

    

Dav45's #10231 (there was a better photo before, but can't find it now.  Dave?)

    

The next 2 aren't real clear, but a metal bowl has 3 indents for holding the strainer.  The indents are visible.

#39659:

    

unknown VIN '47:

    

Sean





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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug. 2007 at 9:58pm
Thanks Sean.  Yes I agree and certainly would not expect a 60 year old pump to be functioning  unless it were rebuilt rather than replaced.  Since I've got two of the glass bowl pumps, I'll look for the characteristics you mentioned and post what I find.  One has been bypassed for an electric pump, so it's just been sitting there keeping oil in the block since the electric pump was installed.
 
Since I've never owned a 2A longer than 6 years, I have no experience to suggest how long a pump might last so I have not considered Bill's point about Jeep pumps needing repair or replacement every 5 years or so.  Although I rebuilt my first one, that's probably because I had little money, and it was cheaper to buy a diaphram and a gasket than a new pump. 
 
While I don't think it proves anything, given the argument that there's no reason to believe an original fuel pump would last 60 years, then the pictures that are posted of all those metal bowl pumps could just as easily be replacement pumps where there were originally glass bowls.   The only reason that suggests they are original is the parts list - not the fact that there are metal bowl pumps on current Jeeps.  Right?  I mean I could go post pcitures of my glass bowl pumps on my Jeeps and it would be equally conclusive.  Geek
 
The odd thing to me is why would anyone have replaced Gary's glass bowl pump with a nasty metal one from an MB?  LOL
 


Edited by samcj2a - 17 Aug. 2007 at 10:13pm
Sam

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Are Glass Bowl Fuel Pumps OE?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug. 2007 at 10:53pm
Anything you see on my postings on the "parts project" were simply things I observed on the parts I have .....They were only a porthole into a deeper conversation on my observation. I have a very original Jeep under a tarp that I can refer to for "original" (from my prospective) parts. Again this Jeep is just like most everone elses that have a unmolested Jeep. A modern day perspective....It may be stock.....It may not be. That's the fun here. Keep throwing out what is found..WHAT, WHERE and HOW..was the Jeep found. Connans '45 was a great sample. The minute someone takes the bolts off to clean a part or replace it, It may be an original Jeep part,.. we all lose a little history.
 
TAKE PICS if you in this boat, we can never back up on an "original" Jeep.
CJ2A #10021 #34692 #58500

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug. 2007 at 11:15pm
Page E18 of the 1948 mechanics manual shows a picture of a glass bowl on the fuel pump
Ed
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug. 2007 at 11:56pm
My '46 has a metal bowl fuel pump and it looks like it's original to the jeep.
My '45 had a replacement electric pump when I got it and it crapped with in two years, so I replaced it with a non-bowl pump in '03 and that one just  died this spring, so I bought a glass bowl pump.
Jerry
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug. 2007 at 7:19am
Ed,
 
Thanks for pointing me towards that manual.  I see that it also gives the AC part number (153886) for the pump used on the 2A.  Don't know if that will help anywhere, but it's another crumb of information that I haven't seen before.
 
Sean,
 
The pump casting style on the two glass bowls that I have match the style of the left-most pump in the four you have pictured on your site.  It'll be a while before I'm able to take one off.   The one on 15292 is not original because it has a "rebuilt" tag on it.    I'll take them off to see what kind of markings, if any, are on the castings.


Edited by samcj2a - 18 Aug. 2007 at 7:41am
Sam

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug. 2007 at 10:47am
Where's Militoy? I would like to hear his engineer's explanation for the _logic_ of a metal vs. glass bowl.

In my mind (admittedly, a bit warped), there is some logic for the glass...to be able to physically examine the gasoline and movement through that area of the fuel system. On a "tractor" (which is really where these things were intended to go, right?), that makes a lot of sense t'me. A metal bowl might be less fragile, but also prevents any examination of the fuel flow.

I've never really explored other old farm vehicle engines of the era, but my memory tells me that all of 'em that I ever saw as a kid were glass...and presumably for the purpose of inspection. Perhaps the metal bowl made a bit more sense in a military application, where it might be more liable to be broken, and not be easily replaceable in a combat situation, but on the farm?

What do the engineering-types have to say about the logic? Or was this the result of the "bean-counters" opting for the cheapest?
Seeya!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug. 2007 at 11:00am
My take:

Metal bowl = Cheap, not as fragile, and easy to fix on the road. Did I mention cheap?

Glass bowl = Able to see gasoline flow. And ... well know I can't think of any more benefits to it cost-wise.
1946 #27869

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug. 2007 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by samcj2a samcj2a wrote:

... given the argument that there's no reason to believe an original fuel pump would last 60 years, then the pictures that are posted of all those metal bowl pumps could just as easily be replacement pumps where there were originally glass bowls.
That's true.

But the same could be said for nearly every part on a CJ2A.  So where do we draw the line?  What do we use as a starting reference point?

The photos I posted are of very low mileage, relatively unmolested vehicles, which have been sitting idle for dozens of years.  Connomans is still the best example of an as nearly all original rig that I've ever seen.

Quote I see that it also gives the AC part number (153886) for the pump used on the 2A.  Don't know if that will help anywhere, but it's another crumb of information that I haven't seen before.
I think you're missing a digit, should be #1538886, included in the parts list:  Fuel Pump

Quote The pump casting style on the two glass bowls that I have match the style of the left-most pump in the four you have pictured on your site.
That's the style I think it should be on '45 and early '46.  I do have a '46 dated casting that looks like the 2nd. type, w/the large reinforcement along the bottom, so they may well have changed sometime in '46.

Sean
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug. 2007 at 12:42pm
Jerry:
Quote My '46 has a metal bowl fuel pump and it looks like it's original to the jeep.
Got a photo?

Just found another metal bowl, on '47 #107238:

    

Sean
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug. 2007 at 1:19pm

My understanding...

The primer lever type fuel pump was used on the militaries. Was it used on the CJ's? I can't figure a reason for Willys to use that type of pump on the civies.
On the militaries, the fuel lines are 3/8" not 1/4"for better flow of fuel, and route across the tub from the tank, underneath and come out on the right side of the engine compartment. It runs 'up hill' to a A/C fuel filter high on the firewall, next to the air cleaner then down and across the front of the engine to the inlet side of the pump. The priming lever is needed to quickly fill the fuel line as it is 'uphill' from the pump. If there is any air leak in the system you will loose the fuel prime very easily when the engine is shut down and the engine won't start easily. Pump the lever, clear the lines of air, off she goes. This is a huge maintenance issue but probably more effective for a vehicle that was designed for fording a river in wartime.
 I can see no reason for a primer lever on the CJ because the fuel line route is almost at the same elevation as the tank. Even with an air leak in the fuel line, the CJ engine will get fuel from the tank through the pump fairly quickly, eccentialy self priming the pump.
IMO, glass fuel bowls vs metal are as likely to be a durability issue as much as anything else. The military pump had a metal bowl. I try to imagine a soldier in the field dealing with a piece of glass on a cranky Jeep... if it gets broken he is in trouble. But while in the field or on the farm with a CJ it is nice to be able to see fuel being delivered. 
Makes sense to me.
Is the metal bowl interchangeable with the glass one on these pumps? The parts lists  for the 2a's list a metal bowl #A1494. Interesting that the MB and the GPW parts lists also show a metal bowl #A1494. What does a AC or Carter manuel say? Mostly curious.
Howard 


Edited by Howard - 18 Aug. 2007 at 5:38pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug. 2007 at 9:42pm
Hey Sean here is a photo that is a little better.

Is this an original???

Dave


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug. 2007 at 7:29am
Originally posted by sean sean wrote:

Originally posted by samcj2a samcj2a wrote:

... given the argument that there's no reason to believe an original fuel pump would last 60 years, then the pictures that are posted of all those metal bowl pumps could just as easily be replacement pumps where there were originally glass bowls.
That's true.

But the same could be said for nearly every part on a CJ2A.  So where do we draw the line?  What do we use as a starting reference point?

The photos I posted are of very low mileage, relatively unmolested vehicles, which have been sitting idle for dozens of years.  Connomans is still the best example of an as nearly all original rig that I've ever seen.

Quote I see that it also gives the AC part number (153886) for the pump used on the 2A.  Don't know if that will help anywhere, but it's another crumb of information that I haven't seen before.
I think you're missing a digit, should be #1538886, included in the parts list:  Fuel Pump

Sean
 
Sean,
 
With respect to the "every part" comment, I think that the reason this fuel pump issue is different is that what is in the wild is so different from what is in the parts list.  I realize that the same discussion could be had for all those block mounted coils.  The main reason not to get sucked into this kind of discussion on most other things is that most of what we see in the wild agrees with what is in the parts list and there are period photos of many things.
 
On the part number, I copied it faithfully from the '48 Mechanics Manual.  It just proves that you can't believe everything you see in the Willys manuals (and lists). LOL  All of the other AC fuel pump part numbers in that manual have 7 digits so I guess that the manual should have had another 8 in the part number for the 2A pump.
 
I'm not all hung up on this little question - just thought I'd pursue it to see what bubbles up.
 
 


Edited by samcj2a - 20 Aug. 2007 at 9:11pm
Sam

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug. 2007 at 11:25am
Pure speculation, but the thought hit my head so I'll say it out loud.

Durability glass vs metal. Wouldn't be so worried myself about the individual soldier breaking the glass bowl as I would be about them being broke in wartime transit. Ocean freighters, Air drops, riding in the back of a CCKW, being tossed around by how many GIs before they reached the point of need.

 I can certainly see shipping them being factor in the decision to use metal.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug. 2007 at 2:05pm
Good point, Doug...I am just thinking it out too...I am still curious about what A/C says. The  specific A/C reference material I have is the TM9-1828A from the Army. Also the 503 parts lists and the Ford parts lists...all from the military vehicles. All list the same part number for the bowl and all describe it as being metal. Same as the CJ material I have; all three editions of the CJ parts lists. Have I missed something?
Does anyone have another A/C Service Manual that actually lists the glass bowl for this fuel pump as a replacement part.
Maybe this will end up like the heater hose fittings and water pump subject...either one goes... ????


Edited by Howard - 20 Aug. 2007 at 2:19pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug. 2007 at 9:15pm
Sean,
 
I looked at the various manuals again tonight and saw that my earlier post about the 2A AC fuel pump part number did not make sense as I originally wrote it.  I edited it tonight to say what I wish I had said!  Basically, I did copy the number correctly from the Mechanics Manual, but the Mechanics Manual is wrong since all the other references to AC fuel pump numbers are 7 digits including those in the parts list.
Sam

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Are Glass Bowl Fuel Pumps OE?
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