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Tramsmission Headscratcher

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jgodfrey View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 Jan. 2021 at 6:07pm
So I rebuilt the T90 and the Dana 18. Everything went fine until I mated them together. Once the bolts are tightened it is locked up. The main shaft will not turn. 
So here's what I've done so far.

I bought shorter bolts to guarantee they aren't hitting the cluster gear, reverse idler, or transfer case gear. No dice. None of them are hitting anything, yet when I tighten them down, it locks up.

If I losen any 2 bolts it frees up, smooth as silk. 

I have been emailing 4ick Stivers and he said that it could be the spacer on the output end of the main shaft, behind the bearing the seats in the transfer case. But that is the original spacer. I don't believe the Novaknkit even comes with it, since It isn't a wear item.

My.gut tells.me it's the bearing on the main shaft binding, but it's pressed on over that spacer. So I'm not sure what to do next. As.soon as I relive pressure between the transmission and transfer case, all is well with the transmission. And no matter.what, the transfer case gears never bind. So they are fine.

I thought maybe the cluster or idler shafts needed to be tapped in more, but not sure. I can upload pictures of these later tonight.

I'm at my wits end. 

Any help or ideas would be appreciated.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote DMusil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan. 2021 at 6:10pm
I would check end play on the T90 main shaft. 10-12 thousands.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan. 2021 at 8:36pm
I didn't measure that. I was able to do it on the transfer case shaft, getting it to .004. But I had borrowed the gauge and returned it.  I did the transmission weeks ago.  It felt good to me.  Does that translate to .010 - nope. But I could get a gauge and measure it again.

But the main shaft does not feel like the culprit. Hear me out here. When I tighten all the bolts the shaft locks up. But if it's in neutral (not engaging the cluster gear or reverse idler, the main shaft spins freely, all the way through the transfer case.  As soon as I put it in any gear, the cluster gear wants to move but can't.

When I loosen any 2-3 bolts between the transfer case and the transmission it's fine.

So I'm wracking my brain trying to figure out what would bind only when those bolts are tightened.  If the cluster gear shaft needed to be seated deeper, could that cause it?  In other words, the cluster gear or reverse idler gear not driven in enough?  Rick Stivers suggested checking the spacer, but it is original.  I changed the front and rear bearings and the shouldered washer on the back of the sealed front bearing.

I have attached a couple pictures, but I don't know if they will help.  I an wracking my brain and at my wits end.  I have never felt in over my head on this until now.






Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan. 2021 at 8:45pm
Since I once again have the main shaft out, I will measure the end play in the cluster gear.  I only have access to an analog gauge, and my cheaters sometimes play games with me.  But I will do my best.

My gut tells me that when I tighten those bolts, the counter shaft and or the reverse idler shaft are pushing into the side of the transfer case and causing the front of the transmission case to bow in a few thousandths.  Fixing the issue by releasing the pressure on 2-3 bolts, and the fact that in neutral the main shaft spins freely, should help, but I am just not experienced enough to know.

Is the counter shaft supposed to be flush on the front of the case?  Mine is very slightly short of flush.

Thanks,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote outlw21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan. 2021 at 9:22pm
Does the lock plate for the 2 shafts fit in the recess in the transfer mounting surface?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan. 2021 at 9:54pm
Yes. I had to grind it to fit inside the gasket.as well. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan. 2021 at 10:16am
Lock plate binding was my first thought.
Stan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote RSR_MK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan. 2021 at 10:22am
It may just be the picture but it looks like the thrust washers on the counter shaft may be standing proud of their  correct location. They should fit in the indention in the case. It sounds like it’s the counter shaft that is in a bind, the rest of it seems to turn in neutral. 

Mike

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan. 2021 at 10:42am
Just looking at the picture of the cluster shaft lock plate with the reverse idler.  It appears to be upside down.  The "T" lock plate should just cover the rear bearing opening.
-Gaffer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan. 2021 at 10:56am
OK.  So I have another question/thought.  I have just gone thorough the T90C rebuild.  I'm not installed yet but I did come to a point when I couldn't turn my transmission.  Are you in neutral when you are trying to turn the transmission?  First you must hold the rear of the trans to keep from pushing the bearing and part of the mainshaft out.  I could turn my transmission in neutral but not in gear.  This turned out to be what I believe is the "blocking ring" for second and third tight on the second or third tapered land for the gear.  I simply had to free this up with very little force with flat blade screw driver.  The rear part of the shaft would not turn seperat from the forward input shaft.  With the interfereance the front and rear of the main shaft were locked together by the cluster gear.  I didn't notice this until I was trying to turn the transmission in gear.  Just something to look at.  Rick Stivers mentions to use assemlby lube and these blocking rings can cause a headache.  I went back and had that issue on my assembly.
-Gaffer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan. 2021 at 11:37am
Yes, the main shaft turns all the way through the transfer case (very easily I might add) when the first\reverse and 2nd\3rd gears are in neutral.  So, while that is able to spin in neutral, if you try to turn the input shaft is is locked up tight.  Even though the main shaft is in neutral, the input shaft still engages the cluster gear - which is bound up.

If I loosen any 2-3 bolts it all frees up and spins in any gear and in neutral.  To me this means the face of the transmission case it being pushed in when those bolts are torqued.

I have been going back and forth with Rick Stivers and he has one more test for me to try today to isolate the problem.  Here is what he asked me to try.

"Put it all back together until it is binding with second gear engaged.

Now place a common screwdriver in between the synchronizer and third gear and gently pry them apart.

Shift it into third gear.

Now gently pry the second gear synchronizer from the second gear.

See if it will turn freely."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan. 2021 at 11:38am
It was a T-shaped plate included in the Novak kit.  But it wouldn't clear the gasket.  According to metalshaper this is a common issue and as he said, "Don't be afraid to grind that down.  I have no idea why they male them so big."

I think I will take that one out and put my original back in.  It seems to be made from stronger steel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan. 2021 at 11:43am
Here is a better shot of the thrust washers.  I think that was an optical illusion.  The washer on the case-side has the notch in the grove on the case, etc.

Once the transfer case bolts are loosened, all is well with the transmission.  It spins like a dream.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan. 2021 at 11:59am
Gaffer,

I don't think you are flexing the cluster gear shaft.  It is a pretty stout shaft.  Is there any play in the back of the transmission case (hole) where the cluster shaft passes out of the case?  That shaft is tapered and the front and rear whole are different sizes.  

If you pull the main shaft  and just bolt it up to test the bind on the cluster gear and idler do they bind up still?
Stev
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan. 2021 at 12:00pm
Originally posted by jgodfrey jgodfrey wrote:

"Put it all back together until it is binding with second gear engaged.

Now place a common screwdriver in between the synchronizer and third gear and gently pry them apart.

Shift it into third gear.

Now gently pry the second gear synchronizer from the second gear.

See if it will turn freely."


This is exactly what I was saying.  Blocking ring and sychronizer can be interchanged.
-Gaffer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan. 2021 at 12:18pm
Jgodfrey,
Just thinking this through.  What Rick has told you to do should be first.  If Sychronizers are bound up there is a problem there that is locking the main shaft.  Can you spin the input and output seperate since you are in neutral?  You should be able too.

Secondly you have two shafts and a drive gear, not on if you have a small hole case, and the lock plate for the shafts on the back of the transmission.  One of these might be interfering with the t-case when you bolt them up and applying pressure to the transmission. 

Is the bearing bore in the t-case clean and free from grime and dirt?

Are the reverse idler shaft or cluster shaft contacting the t-case before the transfer case is touching the transmission case?  This could be verified with some modeling clay on the end of the shaft before you assemble it.  Is there a witness mark from one of the shafts onto the transfercase?  This could also be measured with a set of calipers.

Just spit balling at this point.




-Gaffer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan. 2021 at 12:38pm
You are right on point with my thoughts.  I will do Rick's steps first to verify there isn't an issue with the synchronizers.  But in neutral it spins perfectly.  The part that is hard convey without video is that once it's in gear the main shaft does not feel bound up.  I moves easily with the very little play between the teeth of the gears.  It's the cluster gear and potentially the reverse idler that feel bound.  

I will load up the ends of those two shafts with assembly lube (I don't have modeling clay or playdough), then put them together without the main shaft.  I will be using a dry gasket since I have gone through three sprayed with gasket maker in trying and re-trying to fix this. 

Then I'll pull them apart and see where the impressions are left.  But if it isn't the synchros or the front of the transmission case getting pushed in, I am at a loss.

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan. 2021 at 12:42pm
I wouldn't pull the main shaft until I knew that there was no interference with the cluster shaft and reverse idler shaft.  Just change one thing at a time.  If you pull the mainshaft and grind the shafts to clear you don't know what change fixed the issue.  Its also less work.
-Gaffer
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