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Tramsmission Headscratcher

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Gaffer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan. 2021 at 12:52pm
I don't know if you have a big hole or small hole case.  look at the need to clearance a large hole case here.  Down on the page.  Again food for thought.


I'm sure you will get it.  I hope to build up my 18 starting next week.

Since you have the original bearing plate on the back of the transmission you must have the small hole case.


-Gaffer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan. 2021 at 1:09pm
Agreed.  As many times as I have taken the main shaft out, carefully not disturbing the needle bearings, I don't want to have to hammer out that cluster shaft.  That is tough to do without losing those bearings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan. 2021 at 4:11pm
Ok. Update. Without the main shaft in the transmission I mated the transmission and transfer case.  As soon as the lock.washers flatten out it locks up. I put assembly lube on the ends of the shafts, retention plate, and relief holes in the transfer case.  There is a space between the relief holes that the retention plate hits right away. But this is a standard plate and cannot lay flatter on the back of the transmission.  I tapped the reverse idler and counter shaft is just a hair and it does not lock up quite as tight. Now I can barely turn it by hand.

Progress, but now I have no idea what to do.  it looks like someone at some point ground a bit of the reverse idler shaft slightly. But the counter shaft is new from Novak and appears to be the exact same length as the original shaft.



These shafts can't go any deeper without suckimg the retention plate into the hole.

Now what? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan. 2021 at 4:29pm
I have the smaller bearing retainer ring, but the relief area or the shafts appear.to be the issue. The frustrating thing is that these two are original to the Jeep and have been together for the 45 years I've had it. 

I wouldn't think I'd need to get the Dremel out to change the relief area or.put the shafts on the grinder.

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RSR_MK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan. 2021 at 5:58pm
You might check your used counter shaft to see if it was ground like the reverse idler shaft is. There may be an imperfection in one or both cases that require the shaft to be modified. I really can’t see why pressure on one end of the shaft would cause it to bind up but it seems like a possibility. 

Mike

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan. 2021 at 7:27pm
I finally figured it out. I looked at the original retainer plate for the reverse idler and counter shafts. It was cut to fit in a strange angle that aligned to the relief area in the transfer case. 







So, you can see by the impression left by the assembly lube that the new plate hits an area of the transfer case that is not relieved. You can also see that the old plate would require the slots in the shafts to be rotated approximately 45 degrees, and that it was sit over the bearing retainer plate. 

Rick Stivers sent me a picture of a typical Dana 18. It had an oval area of relief instead of two circles and a channel between them.

So my choices are, relieve the area on the case, or get a new plate (the original is pretty chewed from the Neanderthal (me) that removed it, loosen and rotate the idler and counter shafts, and tap them back in.

I'm strongly leaning towards option 1, since it's more common for that relief to be oval shaped, and I don't like the idea of that plate being in there at that angle.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe DeYoung Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan. 2021 at 8:19pm
That case is ment to marry up to a t84 transmission. It needs to be modified to work with a t90. I can make the modification for you if you'd like. PM me if interested.
Joe DeYoung
to many jeeps, parts, and accessories to list here, but apparently enough to keep me in trouble with my wife.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan. 2021 at 11:10pm
Great work.  Those pictures tell the story.  You were applying pressure to the shaft area as you pulled the two cases tight.
-Gaffer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan. 2021 at 11:43am
Just a quick update.  I was going back and forth with Rick Stivers on this one - a HUGE help.  Once I figured this out he said he would have to chaulk that up to something he's never seen.  I know a lot of people "trim" these retention plates, but I never thought to look at the old one.  And to see that it was clearenced in a very odd way caught me off guard.

Here are some before\after pictures of the final solution.  I machined out an area more typical of the Dana 18s that I have seen pictures of.  I also fabricated a new retention plate that fits tight and is easily with the channel in the transfer case.  I have reassembled everything - officially concluding my first-ever transmission\transfer case rebuild.  Knock on wood that it won't blow up in the first mile, but from everything I can see it is smooth as silk all the way through the output shafts.











Thanks to everyone for your help and support on this.  Next is the installation of the newly rebuild engine, transmission, and transfer case onto the frame.

Many of you know the issues I had with the frame.  The update on that is that now that I have reached out to new shops, they all know this guy (3 so far), and have all had run-ins with him to the point where they will no longer do business.  They all know his M\O.  Claim to be an expert and have everything you need, but in reality he stocks no parts, orders from other shops and upcharges their retail price, have other shops do the work, upcharge you again, never invoice you, then ask for cash.  Oh and the quality?  Forget it.

One shop that is doing some additional welding for me said they stopped working with him years ago, and told me I should sue him.  I am not litigious and that would suck the fun out of this project.  I am moving on.  You are never too old to make mistakes I guess.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan. 2021 at 10:03pm
  You're lucky - I bought a jeep with a T-84-type transfer case bolted onto the back of a T-90, but Bubba didn't realize he had a problem, so he tightened the bolts and broke the transfer case. Then he brazed it back together and bolted it on again, and broke it again. Then he just gobbed it up with silicone sealer.
BW
Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Jeff_Davis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan. 2021 at 11:51pm
Here's another area to watch out for in your next assembly steps.
I did the T-90 rebuild (a fun challenge I'm glad I tackled) , and I had a recommended shop do the t/c rebuild, because my case was cracked and they had a good used case.
After the rebuild of both the trans and t/c, I assembled the drivetrain back into the jeep.      I then installed the emergency brake assembly and rear yoke and torqued everything to specs.   Everything was free and clear without the brake assembly, but when I torqued down the 4 flange bolts, everything was locked up.
I suspected that it must be the Emergency brake.  I had no guts in it when I bought the jeep, so I had sourced new innards for the E-brake and made everything "right". I took it apart about 5 times checking adjustments and for interference and for an out-of-round brake drum.  Nothing cured the problem.  
Somebody on this forum suggested I check the bearing clearance on the rear bearing cap assembly, and make sure the cap was shimmed correctly to give shaft end play of .004" to .008".   Sure enough, the "pro shop" had just thrown in one shim, was near zero lash, and as I tightened everything down, it would bind the output shaft bearing and gear.

Check the end play on the output shaft and shim the rear bearing cap correctly.  Save yourself some frustration.  And do it before you have everything assembled in the jeep!

With the confidence I built on the T-90, next time I will just rebuild my own t/c, as well.
Best, Jeff

Jeff
1947 Willys CJ2A Las Flores, Provinca de Buenos Aires, Argentina
1951 Willys M38 Flightline jeep (Southeast Florida)
1954 M-100 USMC Trailer
1954 FORD F-100 parts chaser, 292 V8 Y-Block
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