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Trouble Driving in Valve Guides

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Ranger42 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ranger42 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Trouble Driving in Valve Guides
    Posted: 18 Jan. 2019 at 3:25pm
I successfully extracted all 8 valve guides using a puller made along the lines of Jeeper50's / Roger S.  design. I used a length of grade 8, 3/8th threaded rod, two grade 8 nuts, two grade 5 nuts, two sockets, and a thin square of plywood to protect the block.  They all came out pretty easily (with some elbow grease) much to my surprise.  I even, made a shortened version of the puller to get cylinder 4's exhaust valve out without moving the engine.

I’ve run into some trouble driving in the new ones.    I cleaned up the bore thoroughly with solvent and a bore mop, took the valve guide out of the freezer where it had been chilled to about -5 deg F, then used the piloted valve guide install punch I ordered with the valve cutter supplies.  It went in well to a point.  I was trying to move it down the last 0.1 inch too get the magic 1" level for exhaust guide and CRACK!  The top of the valve guide broke.

So here’s some questions:
A) Should I lubricate the bore before driving in the guide?  I’ve seen nothing recommending this in any of the manuals, etc.  I’m not keen on the idea of lubing the bore, because I don’t want the guide to become loose at temperature when the engine is running
B) I’ve read some about heating the head (or in this case the block) as well as chilling the guides to make for easier install.  The trouble is it’s 16 deg F out in our barn were the jeep is, so heating the block is not likely.  I thought about warming it slightly with a MAP gas torch, but with how cold the block is, I don’t want to risk heating one bore with the rest of the block cold and the block cracking

So what do you think?  Lube or no?  Heat or no?  Or just drive in the next guide and maybe it was a bad guide casting that broke the first time?

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WeeWilly View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeeWilly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan. 2019 at 4:33pm
Did you measure the bore and the guides?  The guides might be to large and need to be grind down a little or get another set. I don't have my machinist manual with me but I would guess that the guides should only be about .001 over size.

   Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe DeYoung Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan. 2019 at 4:43pm
1st - measure the bore and the guide ( if you are able) to see how much interference you have. If more than .001 or maybe .0015 then that explains your problem.
 
2nd - Heating and cooling are not likely to help you very much as you can't get enough of a differential in temp for that small of a diameter to get it installed before it expands back to size. That happens very quickly!! You're more likely to just get it crooked in the bore and have real problems.
 
You should be able to just press it to depth. I'm reluctant to say pound it to depth with a hammer and dowel but it's more than a light tap. It should take a pretty good 'WAP' without beating the crap out of it. I use a dowel with a shoulder on it so that I know when I'm to the correct depth. Lubrication would be helpful to prevent galling.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe DeYoung Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan. 2019 at 4:44pm
Ha Jim... you type 1 min faster than me Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan. 2019 at 4:44pm
If the block is 17 degrees and the guide is -5. Then you only have a difference of 22 degrees. This would be like cooling the guide to 48 in a normal 70 degree shop environment. Thermal coefficients of expansion are constant. So in a normal setting with the block at 70 and the guide at -5 you would have almost 3.5 times the shrink.  Assuming the relationship is linear 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan. 2019 at 4:50pm
Perhaps its the quality of the guides. I obtained mine from an online vendor with results similar to your experience. I than purchased Federal Mogul guides from NAPA and they installed with no problem. I oiled the bore and installed at room temperature, temperature determined by cranky propane heater on very cold day, maybe 45 degrees.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeeWilly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan. 2019 at 5:12pm
  I would advise against heating the block and chilling the guides and driving them in, that would put a lot of stress on the bores of the block when the temp equalized.

   Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan. 2019 at 5:38pm
Did the top of the guide have a recess in it, or did your install tool try to go inside it? Or both? Does the tool have a good square shoulder on it, and a major diameter as large as or greater than the guide?  I have installed them with block and guide both at ambient temp, and I have put the guides in the freezer on a 90* day, and never really noticed any difference. BW
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan. 2019 at 6:07pm
One of your problems is the block temperature. If you can figure out a way to heat the jeep up, it would help a lot. Was the driver at room temperature, or at -5? If at room temperature, the driver warmed up the guide before you even got the guide into the block. This is not a major issue if room temperature is 70+. 

I have in the past used plastic to make a booth, much like a paint booth, & heated it with a kerosene heater. It worked fairly well. However, carbon monoxide can be an issue if the booth is not vented properly. Be very careful about this, installing valve guides is not worth dying for. You could heat the booth up letting the Jeep soak in the heat, for at least 45 minutes. Then vent the booth well before entering it to install the valve guides. The jeep will not cool off too fast for this to work. The block has enough mass to retain the heat for a while, 20 minutes or so, plenty of time.

I also favor a good name brand on my engine parts.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usmcpmi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan. 2019 at 8:14pm
I agree that the block temp needs to be higher. I haven't replaced valve guides, but I have re sleeved several engines. I took a simple heat lamp and set it up on each side of the block and covered it with a tarp for a day or so...put the sleeves in the deep freeze for a day or so, then put it back together. The lamps allow the entire block to warm up evenly to around 100* 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ranger42 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan. 2019 at 9:15pm
Wow.  Thanks for all the great input. I do not have a bore gauge large enough to check the bore ID versus the guide OD (only a small bore set for checking the inside of the guide).  I may invest in one. 

The driver I have has a very short shoulder. I plan on adding some 3/8 washers for the next one I try to spread the load further.

 Also, these are probably Omix Ada manufacture.  I did find Sealed Power guides on NAPA. I think they are a subsidiary of Federal-Mogul.  Does anyone know if Sealed Power parts are US made?   Lastly, I like the heatlamp idea.  I have one left over from raising chicks a few years back.  I'm sure I can get the temp difference up to more like -5 to + 80 F.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan. 2019 at 9:46pm
Sealed Power parts are made all around the world. The SP valves I bought for my jeep were made in South Africa.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan. 2019 at 10:18pm
I would venture like I think Bruce also does the short shoulder on the driver broke down and acted as a wedge to splay open the top of the guide. Not so much the quality of the guide failing. Hard steel is also brittle  and the guide was not designed to handle the type of force the driver created.

IMHO
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepSaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan. 2019 at 1:15am
Originally posted by Ranger42 Ranger42 wrote:

I’m not keen on the idea of lubing the bore, because I don’t want the guide to become loose at temperature when the engine is running

So what do you think?  Lube or no? 

There is no reason why a lubed up bore and guide will suddenly become loose at operating temps. If it were to happen, this would be a function of the temp of the block and guide, not the lube. In any case, both guide and block heat up to equal temp during operating, so the guide is not going to somehow heat up less and fall out of the block. 

Go ahead and lube. You will exponentially decrease the friction between the guide and block, and hence the resistance to drive it in. 

Have you ever tried a "slip n slide" without any water on the plastic? Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepSaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan. 2019 at 2:31am
Just to add....

The force needed to overcome friction is proportional to the surface area of the connecting surfaces. So as the guide moves further into the bore the force needed to overcome friction will increase. 

If you succeeded in driving the guide in all the way except for the last 1/8" without any lubricant, then i hate to say it but you would easily have driven it all the way with a little lubricant. 

No need to change your guide supplier or your driver or your methods. A little pre lube should do the trick for you. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Unkamonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan. 2019 at 3:57am
Generally, valve guides are not a big deal. A friend wanted me to go do some on an old Case diesel crawler. OK. Old valve guides are gone. Should have been the first clue. I grabbed a new guide and set it in place. Slid down and landed on the cam. We have problems here that I can't deal with. I just called him and told him he needs a new motor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usmcpmi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan. 2019 at 9:28am
Originally posted by Ranger42 Ranger42 wrote:

Wow.  Thanks for all the great input. I do not have a bore gauge large enough to check the bore ID versus the guide OD (only a small bore set for checking the inside of the guide).  I may invest in one. 
Do you still have the old guides? Put a caliper on the old one, then measure the new ones and see what the difference is between the 2...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeeper50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan. 2019 at 10:18am
Originally posted by Bruce W Bruce W wrote:

Did the top of the guide have a recess in it, or did your install tool try to go inside it? Or both? Does the tool have a good square shoulder on it, and a major diameter as large as or greater than the guide?  I have installed them with block and guide both at ambient temp, and I have put the guides in the freezer on a 90* day, and never really noticed any difference. BW

X2
 

I used guides from rockauto  Sealed Power brand P/n VG338 and VG130 about $3 each,  post a pic of your driver.

Looking at your pic, looks like your driver may not have large enough shoulder and it damaged the top of your guide enough to become a wedge that caused the guide to crack as it tried to push the guide down.




Edited by jeeper50 - 19 Jan. 2019 at 10:33am
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