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What motors do I have?

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Dogsbody View Drop Down
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    Posted: 29 July 2021 at 4:32pm
I’m back on my ‘47 CJ-2A project. My 9 year old is helping. I have my son painting the chassis and misc parts. He’s a Van Gogh with a broad brush and black Rustoleum, just like I was with the red oxide primer. 😀  We’ve been having a good time together in the shop.
I’ve been trying to free up the block with frozen pistons. With luck and time I did get the pistons out ( thank you acetone and ATF fluid).
The project came with two partially assembled motors.
The first motor is the motor that was in it when it came out of Eastern Oregon. It had the frozen pistons. It is ser. # J 204875, casting numbers are 641087-L-W4. I believe this is a CJ motor. ?
The pistons are .030 oversized. It has a gear driven cam. The crank looks remarkably good as I can’t feel any thing when I run my finger nail on the bearing surfaces. 
I am going to get the block tanked just to see what I have. I don’t see any cracks but it is dirty and does have pitting on the top surface and in some of the cylinder walls.

The second motor is funky. It has 440-34487I stamped on a casting boss. The casting number is 636953W1. N1-CR-N2.
It has the crank, cam, valves /valve train installed. It has a chain driven cam set up. The rods seem different.
I’ve looked it up by the 440# and I guess this is a Willys Americar motor, circa 1940? We all know the interweb never lies.

Is the 440 motor like an MB motor? I can’t seem to find overhaul kits for it. 

I’d prefer to have CJ motor in my CJ-2A so I’m leaning on getting that block cleaned up first.
I have two heads that say Willys Jeep etc, etc.

This project truly is a basket case so I’m trying to figure out what I have. Some parts have been lost as it sat for 20+ years in a field in Western Oregon after sitting 25+ years in Eastern Oregon.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. This is such a great site. 
As soon as I figure out how to post pictures I’ll get some up (I’m not the most computer tech savvy person).
Cheers,
Dave




Edited by Dogsbody - 29 July 2021 at 5:12pm
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Oldpappy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2021 at 5:49pm
If the rods look different in the one with the chain drive cam it probably has poured "Babbitt" bearings instead of rod bearing inserts. 

In my youth I fooled around with several old Chevys from the 30s which had those. Nothing really wrong with that type of bearings, until they get worn beyond what can be handled with a shim job, but it does require some know how to service them, and may be difficult to find a shop that can refurbish them if they are too egged out for shim adjustment to work. Won't hold oil pressure when worn to that point.

Someone else on here may know whether later style connecting rods with inserts will fit the earlier engines, I never have had a L134 that old. 




Edited by Oldpappy - 29 July 2021 at 5:51pm
If you can't get there in a Jeep you don't need to be there!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berettajeep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2021 at 7:32pm
I have a 441 Americar block in my '47.  Still runs with a crack under the distributor seeping coolant every once in a while and very low compression.  I have a "60's replacement engine that I will eventually swap in ( been saying that for three years now Embarrassed)   If you ever get bored in Portland and head to Astoria to help with my 2A, I wont mind lol. 

 I'm also curious about rebuild kits for my 441. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2021 at 7:08am
I have never owned one, but my understanding is that other than the connecting rods it is basically the same engine as used in the WW2 Jeeps. 

I do know that the heads, oil pans, and other externals will interchange because I have a Jeep engine in my barn that has the oil pan and head off of one of the earlier car engines, and have seen plenty of Jeep engines with the "Supersonic" heads from the Henry J car. 

Willys did some things to the car engine to get a little more HP out of it, but they didn't make a lot of changes. 

Who said you have to have a "rebuild kit"?

The only real question in my mind about it is whether or not the later connecting rods will work and that can be quickly determined by measuring and comparing. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dogsbody Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2021 at 11:16am
Thank you all for responding. I will follow up on the advice and do some more checking /comparing on the early 440 motor to my later motor.  
I will post up what I find out.
Cheers,
Dave

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dogsbody Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug. 2021 at 12:46am
Here is a picture of the 440 con rod with Babbitt bearing and shims for those who may be interested.
That is a really interesting way to skin a cat,
Cheers,
Dave
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oilleaker1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug. 2021 at 7:55am
The 40's Chevy 216's had babbit bearings and rod dippers to oil the connecting rods. Insert bearings for the mains. I rebuilt mine and sent the rods with full shim packs to specialty machine shop that is now out of business. They "poured" the babbit into the rods while in a mold. Then machined the babbit to fit the machined crankshaft. There was a special tool called a rod checker to see if the machined babbited rods were done straight. The engine runs hot at about 14 pounds of oil pressure. You do not over rev it or the dippers won't provide enough oil lubrication. Ouch It's a lost art. In the old days of babbit, they would "scrape" the babbit to remove high spots. If the rods got to knocking, you would remove rod shims to tighten them up. I had one engine that all the shims were gone and they had filed the rod caps. The crank had a groove in it that was about a 1/8 inch. The engine sounded like a rock crusher was operating, LOL. 

I would build the full oil pressure engine you have. The Americar engine is very similar to the early Slat Grill engines and those guys want that. 

Check very closely for cracks before you spend your hard earned dollars. Cracks spell nothing but trouble unless you have them fixed by pinning and resurfacing by a expert who has done many engines. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug. 2021 at 9:49am
As Oilleaker1 said, servicing the Babbitt bearings has become a lost art, and those of us who have worked with them are all getting older. 

The last time I did a "shim job" was on an old Chevy fifty years ago. Looks like your rod is down to the last shim set, so probably "egged out" and would need new Babbitt material poured, then trued up. I doubt you will find any shop today that can do that.

I would compare measurements of those rods to the later rods with insert bearing, and if the later will work I think that would be the best option if you do decide to rebuild this engine. 

I know of only one machine shop around here that has been in business long enough that the owner is able to refurbish the rabbit bearing rods, and he is about to retire and close shop because his sons don't want to continue with the business. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dasvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug. 2021 at 10:19am
Chevrolet used babbited bearings in 216 & 235 engines up until 1953...
 The last time that I had babbit bearing rod rebuild quote was over 15 years ago & cost was outrageous.
Egge machine can do these, but they don't show cost on their web site 


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..... & one of them moves under it's own power!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dogsbody Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug. 2021 at 10:22am
It’s a sign of the times that business’s that were once ubiquitous are gone.
The leaf spring rebuild shop near me moved away.
A friend was rebuilding an old Mercedes and had to replace the motor mounts but the were none available so he found a local shop in Seattle that did that kind of work. He took down what he had and they made up new ones. Not a big deal and was inexpensive. When he went by the shop again there was a apartment building standing there.
Dave
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cdn2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug. 2021 at 10:42am
Careful with some of the Americar blocks, as the cooling jacket on some, doesnt go all the way to the "bottom". You can actually see the cylinders from the outside. Obviously it doesnt cool as well.
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