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what prevents unmetered air through PCV??

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konstan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote konstan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug. 2018 at 3:41pm
Ok thanks you guys!

I took the valve apart. It was clean and the spring and plunger were new. I remember replacing them from a NOS kit that came with the jeep.

So I put the valve in and connected the line from it to the valve cover.

I think we all agree that the explanation in the patent is backwards. 

I am going to finish assembling the air cleaner but I also need to replace the rubber grommets that the generator is mounted in, so, for now, I have to wait for them to get to me in the mail. I'll replace the generator brushes while I am at it, and paint it too, right now its the only ugly part in an otherwise pristine engine bay.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote konstan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug. 2018 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by JeepSaffer JeepSaffer wrote:

Konstan, this is how I see it:

The vacuum in the manifold is greatest at idle, as Scoutpilot says. In this case, the plunger is pulled against the spring inside the PCV, and the plunger cone seats against the end of the valve case. In this case, the only port free to admit air into the manifold is the small hole at the end of the plunger. This means at low revs, less air as admitted.

At higher revs, when vacuum is less in the manifold, the spring lifts the plunger cone off its seat. Now, air can be admitted not only through the small hole on the end of the plunger, but also through the other larger holes in the side of the plunger, and around the nose of the plunger. ie at higher revs, more air is admitted.

This is how the valve regulates the amount of unmetered air being admitted to the manifold. As Scoutpilot says, this is in a small enough quantity not to upset the metered air/fuel ratio already fixed by the carb. I don't know how much unmetered air can be admitted before this ratio is upset. Only the engine designers would know this. But look at the dia of the throat of the carb and the dia of the PCV plunger holes and we can see that the differences are large. My rough calcs show that the carb throat area is about 760 times larger than the small plunger hole area. So the small plunger hole would admit about 0.1% of the air coming in through the carb throat. The larger plunger holes might increase this 5 times to 0.5%. I haven't measured them accurately, but it would be of this order of magnitude.

Lets assume that the PCV lets in maximum 0.5% of unmetered air and that this is not enough to upset the carb air/fuel mix. Or alternatively, we can assume when fine tuning your carb you can set the mixture screw 0.5% rich to compensate for the addition of this air after the carb. Either way, it is a negligible amount of unmetered air being introduced.

There are two other important things to consider. The first is that the air inside your crankcase is not at atmospheric pressure, it is lower than atmospheric pressure, so it is not the same as "outside" air. The air in your crankcase comes from the oil filler tube which is itself connected to your air crossover tube, all connected to your oil bath air filter. This air is pulled through your oil bath filter, which ony happens due to the vacuum in the engine, and as a result all air after the oil bath filter is sub-atmospheric in pressure. Air flow through the PCV will be proportional to the difference in pressures, so the PCV connected to your properly sealed crankcase (at subatmospherc pressure) will admit less air to your manifold than your PCV exposed to atmospheric "outside" air. That is why it is important that your crankcase is properly sealed, as mentioned on the post by Joe W above.

The other possible factor is that your PCV plunger is not seating properly (admitting too much air at idle) or somehow assembled wrong. These would be easy to verify.

You are excited to get your engine running, and you deserve to be. My advice would be to get it all properly assembled, all parts connected (including filler tube, filler tube cap gasket, crossover tube to filler tube connection, crossover tube to air filter, air filter oil bath filled correctly etc.), then hunt for and eliminate all vacuum leaks (these are really common around the carb base and inlet manifold-to-block gasket), and only then worry about fine tuning the idle on your engine. If you jump straight to trying to fine tune the idle on your engine before these other things are attended to you will spend a lot of time chasing it, and get very frustrated in the process. 

Be patient, take your time, eliminate the things mentioned above. You will get there. 

Thank you, this was a great, thoughtful post and the math makes sense... I enjoyed reading this and I will follow you suggestion on the order in which to get everything set up and running.

On the plus side, I have no coolant leaks, good oil pressure, I had two oil leaks but they were trivial -- one at the oil gauge (cleaned up and tightened), one at the filter housing drain (tightened), and I was able to engage the tranny in 1st and reverse.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote konstan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug. 2018 at 3:54pm
Originally posted by mbullism mbullism wrote:

if any of that is unclear...all you need do is drive around with your vacuum wipers turned on Tongue

... and when hauling gravel to the farm, in a downpour, pull over to let the wipers work for a while before proceeding. LOL this is exactly why when I read the patent I was like "whaaa?"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote athawk11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug. 2018 at 4:14pm
It is kind of interesting that the patent request seems to describe the inverse of what we know to be true. Perhaps they initially built the valve to work in the reverse?  I don't know.  Jeep Saffer's explanation was excellent, but now my head is all fuzzy.LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote konstan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug. 2018 at 4:26pm
Originally posted by athawk11 athawk11 wrote:

Here's a photo that might help...


This looks a lot like mine, I will try to post a pic tonight. Same color scheme motor and frame.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote athawk11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug. 2018 at 4:59pm
konstan,
I would like to see it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote konstan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug. 2018 at 3:38am
Here are some pics.

Please note, the color is not actually as orange as it looks, that must be some kind of artificial light effect... its actually quite red


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote konstan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug. 2018 at 3:39am
I took off the generator so I could disassemble it, clean it up, replace the brushes...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote konstan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug. 2018 at 3:40am
Also took off the carburetor to make some adjustments.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote konstan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug. 2018 at 3:42am






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote athawk11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug. 2018 at 4:57am
Looks real nice.  It comes across as orange on my screen too.  Probably need to drive that rolling chassis outdoors for a few shots in the sunshine.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug. 2018 at 10:26am
nice clean work Smile... probably end up taking that cross over tube base back off to fix it (ask me how I know, lol)
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it... Welcome to 1930's Germany
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote konstan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug. 2018 at 10:59am
what crossover tube base? Oh that thing that the spark plug wires are routed through?

Do I have it on backwards?


Edited by konstan - 21 Aug. 2018 at 11:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug. 2018 at 11:06am
Originally posted by konstan konstan wrote:

what crossover tube base?

The stamped sheet metal standee bolted to the head, passenger side rear... your plug wires go through the grommet coming off the dizzy cap.  The hard pipe for the air cleaner is typically spot welded in that curved saddle





Edited by mbullism - 21 Aug. 2018 at 11:10am
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it... Welcome to 1930's Germany
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote konstan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug. 2018 at 11:10am
Originally posted by mbullism mbullism wrote:


The stamped sheet metal standee bolted to the head, passenger side rear... your plug wires go through the grommet coming off the dizzy cap.  The hard pipe for the air cleaner is typically spot welded in that curved saddle

Oh, you mean take it off for welding... Dang. Getting all those wires through the hole in it was quite a pain...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug. 2018 at 11:12am
Originally posted by konstan konstan wrote:

Oh, you mean take it off for welding... Dang. Getting all those wires through the hole in it was quite a pain...

Been there, too Confused... my tube had just enough of the old spot welds to re-index it...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 48willys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug. 2018 at 12:49pm
I left the bracket loose on the farm jeep, makes getting the air horn off the carb much easier. I don't know if that's a good idea or not, but I'm going to hose clamp the bracket to the tube to keep it a little more Ridgid like it was intended to be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote konstan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug. 2018 at 5:35pm
Why does it need to be rigid?

Keep i mind I've never had a running and driving Willys, so... thats why
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